113: Balancing Self-Care and Community Care with Nat Vikitsreth
This episode is about liberation, revolution, and social justice. We are tackling these topics from a practical perspective with my guest, Nat. Join us!
Nat Vikitsreth is a licensed clinical social worker who works with families who want to practice social justice in their daily lives but are torn between acting in their communities and at home. She helps them bridge the gap despite being tired, overwhelmed, and stretched too thin. Holding space for their beautiful intentions and walking with them on this journey are Nat’s passions.
Show Highlights:
Nat’s background as a transgender woman from Thailand who has become a clinician and a social justice organizer
Trying to honor our values about liberation at home and in the community
Being your own ally first with agility and awareness of your available bandwidth
Learning to hold space for accountability
The root causes of our suffering: white supremacy, colonialism, capitalism, and patriarchy
Leading with compassion in action instead of punishment
What it means to be truly humble
Nat’s advice for parents
Finding the sweet spot between discomfort and boundaries
Being realistic in your family about what causes you can support and take action on with your limited capacity
Nat’s words of advice about actions beyond the “sexy actions” to take
Resources and Links:
Connect with Nat Vikitsreth: Website and Come Back to Care Podcast
Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook
Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning
We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes.
-
KC Davis 0:05
Hello, you. Sentient ball of stardust. This is struggle care, and I'm your host, KC Davis, and we're going to be jumping into a topic today about liberation and revolution and social justice. But you know what? We're gonna get really, really practical with it, because as I say those words, some of you maybe feel inspired and energized, and maybe some of you feel exhausted and overwhelmed. And so I'm here right now with Nat wicked said, and I practiced that last name a few times. Did I do? Okay,
Nat Vikitsreth 0:41
it was beautiful. Casey. Okay, thank you. Thank you.
KC Davis 0:45
I'm so glad to have you here. Can you just share with the audience you know who you are and what you do and why you're so passionate about the topic today, absolutely,
Nat Vikitsreth 0:55
I get to work with families who really want to practice social justice in their day to day life, and they're torn between doing it in their communities and doing it at home with their families. And I get to help them bridge that gap. And a lot of the families that I get to work with, which is such a huge honor. They are tired, they are overwhelmed and stretched so thin. Yet tension is there, yet they have this wound from their childhood that keeps getting in the way when they want to practice those beautiful social justice intentions, so I get to hold all of those pieces together and walk with them on this journey awesome.
KC Davis 1:49
And can you share with us a little bit about your identity and your heritage and how some of these issues of liberation are really close to your lived experience and your passions?
Nat Vikitsreth 1:59
I was born and raised in Thailand, in a Thai, Chinese family, and as a transgender woman who's also a social justice organizer and a clinician, I get to combine all of the things that I love into my work with families. I started out as a sex worker and doing social justice organizing amongst our trans sex worker community in Thailand. And then I moved into working with little children with autism, and I just fell in love with working with little children and families.
KC Davis 2:39
That's amazing. The you know, the two things that I really wanted us to get in today, and they kind of mirror each other, is that I feel like a lot of people struggle with this idea of self care versus community care, so it feels as though they're having to choose between. How do I take care of myself so I don't feel overwhelmed, so I don't feel in despair. But how do I also stay plugged in to maybe the world stage and what's happening to other people that are being oppressed and being marginalized and and it feels like they have to pick between one or the other. And then, very similar to that is, you know, something you spoke to, which is people who are parents, who are going, Okay, I, you know, I would love to be involved in some of these issues, but I don't have the time, you know, to go out and be in a protest, or maybe I don't have the time to organize or be involved. I feel like everything is kind of right here at home. And, yeah, I guess I want to teach my kids about these things, but is that enough? Like, can I really not do anything outside the home, but I do want to do want to do some things outside the home, and it kind of feels like there's not enough time and energy to do both. So I'm hoping that people at home, whether they're parents or whether they're childless, or whatever their family situation, is this idea of trying to honor our values towards liberation in our homes and in our communities and in the broader kind of like, world stage, like, I just want to acknowledge, like, it's super difficult.
Nat Vikitsreth 4:05
It is, especially when we play by the script written by white supremacy, capitalism, colonialism and patriarchy that's centering us, our individual will and our individual action, where, if I don't take action, I am failing as a human right. The same thing applies here, that if we center our will and our action instead of our collective action and liberation, then we just fall into that trap that the oppressor want us to fall, which is, oh, it's, it's too big for me, then I'm not going to do anything. So what I often say to people who want to take action but are so tired is that we must be our own ally first before being our. Eyes to other people, and that means, instead of focusing on what's the right strategy that I need to do, what if we focus on agility, where let me check in with my bandwidth? Do I have enough to step in and take action? And we'll get into details about what the options can be based on disability justice movements and things like that. Or do I have just enough bandwidth to step back a little bit Fill my cup, and once it's filled, I can step back into action? That's the agility. How much bandwidth do I have, and what can I do?
KC Davis 5:44
And I appreciate that what you're describing is an embodiment of a fluid movement, because I feel like where a lot of us get stuck sometimes is that, you know, you'll hear someone say, I don't know what's going on in Palestine because it's all too overwhelming, and I have anxiety, and then you'll have this kind of flood of people that will really say, like, how dare you. How privileged of you. I'm sure people in Palestine would love to turn the TV off and not think it. And it's not that there's not some truth, because there are people who say that from a perspective of, you know, I don't want to be involved or, or, oh, I want to center my comfort and let like there's some validity to we don't just get to unplug because it's uncomfortable. But at the same time, I feel like sometimes that white supremacy motive of like, if you are not acting, you're a bad person, morally, gets used and weaponized even within social justice communities, where we're policing each other and but then you have the people that aren't doing anything, weaponizing even that, and being like, well, you're not allowed to police me. And it's like, well, and it's so it's like this whole mess of, is it accountability, or is it policing? Is it self care, or is it sticking your head in the sand? And, and, you know, I know, even personally, like I've had friends call me and say, I really don't want to be the person that just puts their head in the sand, but I am really struggling. I feel like, if I'm, you know, if I'm on tick tock, and a video comes up talking about the genocide in Congo, I feel like, if I scroll past it, I'm being a bad person, because I should look, and I should pay attention. And then you'll have people that say, you know, and so there's this interesting tension there to me, where it is, you know, at some point, yeah, if I'm just saying, Oh, I have the privilege to not have to look at anything distressing that doesn't feel right, but at the same time, forcing myself to never be able to opt out of something distressing is now overwhelming my system to the point I can't take any action.
Nat Vikitsreth 7:51
Yes, Casey, thank you so much for naming Congo Palestine and the lives of children that are being lost and children that are being starved, right? And this tension is so needed. If any of us is feeling that tension, it indicates to me, humbly that we're in the ring. We're taking action, we're getting into the mess. So why not give ourselves a little bit of grace and and this conversation just came up in my community too, when I work with black indigenous youth organizer of color, that we just want to take action. We just want to take action. We want to jump in because the global injustice is so strong, we must hold ourselves accountable, and we need to take pause on that idea of accountability as punishment and disguise. It's really difficult to hold someone accountable, and the alternative is to hold space for accountability. Let me
KC Davis 9:09
sit with that for a minute, because, you know, I've had a lot of interesting experiences with kind of that word accountability in a community sense, where, you know, where I've almost had these thoughts of like, you know, accountability is not something you can force onto someone else. It's only something we can take for ourselves, and then at the end of the day, sometimes, you know, I'll take accountability, but the other person doesn't think that I have or I didn't do it in a way that they wanted to see it, or it wasn't good enough, or there's some, you know, accusations about my motives behind it, and it's hard to be in that space where, okay, I don't want to be too defensive, and I want to look at myself and I, you know, then you almost get in this rabbit hole of, I don't know if I know that I have blind spots, but am I always. An unreliable narrator to my own reality, yes,
Nat Vikitsreth 10:02
right, like you can't see what you can't see, and that narrative of okay to be accountable, I need to take action, otherwise I'm going to be punished. And then to your that accountability can only look like a, b and c, otherwise it's not accountable enough or accountable in the wrong way. So we end up policing one another into conformity, where in my trans community, when we organize, we often aim for how do we be different together, different in our interventions, different in our strategies, and even different in our values. So when we hold space for someone to be accountable to say it differently, it means I love you so much. What support do you need to take action?
KC Davis 11:01
Gosh, and think about how different that is, to hold space for someone else, to be accountable, to come to them and say, you know, I love you so much. What do you need right now in order to, you know, take a look at what's going on with you and start to take steps towards, you know, what feels more aligned with your values?
Nat Vikitsreth 11:23
Yes, yes. I'm
KC Davis 11:25
kind of curious as we're talking and I'm gonna Google it real quick. I feel like accountability is one of those words, and I'm kind of curious what that like. Can I get a definition? Of course, it's gonna tell me how to make an email account. Okay, accountability, responsibility, okay, let's see. Let's see. Let's
Nat Vikitsreth 11:46
see. I
KC Davis 11:48
want someone to give me to make an account,
Nat Vikitsreth 11:52
to make an account, to make,
KC Davis 11:57
to make an account of one's behavior. Let me see if that says something. I
Nat Vikitsreth 12:08
can always cut this off.
But I thought that we're exploring and learning. Yeah, we're in real time. We need this
KC Davis 12:20
because something tells me that to make an account doesn't mean just saying you were wrong or just saying, you know you agree with someone or I don't know. It's interesting
Nat Vikitsreth 12:37
to me, yeah, and I'm approaching this idea of accountability Casey through the lens of transformative justice, meaning that we look at the root causes of our suffering, and it's again, White supremacy, colonialism, capitalism and patriarchy, and because we're swimming in this water together, it's really hard for me to fault you for hurting me without understanding the root causes. So when hurt and harm happens, the community comes together and ask, yeah, we're surviving under the same systemic oppression. How do we move through it together without involving the police, without saving one another? Like, what do we need to move together forward?
KC Davis 13:36
Hmm, okay, here's some interesting things. So to call someone to account means to hold them accountable, to blame them or to reprimand them. It could also, which is an interesting right, but it says it could also mean to ask for an explanation of something. For example, the people responsible for the accident must be brought to account. It says synonyms of call someone to account, include blame, cast a stone, hold responsible. It's interesting how deeply entwined those things are with this idea of blame and how that's not, that's not like quite it. But I love this idea of like to call someone to explain, or to examine or to you know, and what's interesting, I think, is this idea of like to call someone to account as the idea of asking for an explanation, it's almost like I'm not coming in with this, like I know that you're wrong, but it's like this looks strange. This looks concerning. Let's come to the table and talk about it, because maybe I don't know all the information, or maybe you're needing some help, or maybe there's something that you need from us, and I think that's an interesting way to look at it. I.
Nat Vikitsreth 15:01
And that's compassion in action. Instead of leading with punishment, let's explore what your needs are. How can we show up for you? How do we move together through this? And to me, that's accountability, and I'm so struck by the definition of blame and cast a stone which is so deeply embedded in our cultural narrative, the punishment piece right where the military force in Israel also has that texture of punishment, and they're training the police force in the US again, same texture of punishment, and it trickles down into our home when we try to, quote, unquote, hold our children accountable for their behaviors. And is it truly accountability, or is it punishment that
KC Davis 15:57
is like the words you hear as you will hear Israel say, we will hold these terrorists to account. We will hold them accountable. And then, you know, we have mass bombing of civilians. And so it does make you think, gosh, do we even have the right words to describe what we want to be talking about now? And I think you know, we're our own first bully when it comes to these things,
Nat Vikitsreth 16:18
yes, and it serves the system of oppression so well when we keep blaming ourselves and shutting down and not taking action because of shame, and that keeps us stuck in cynicism and despair, instead of mobilizing Together with our neighbors, with us with each other. And I always say this Casey, because I work with parents who are so stretched so thinly across every direction, especially now back to school season, that across races, places and classes. We all want our kids to have better lives than we had, but we're surviving, trying to get through the day in one piece, paying the bills, putting food on the table together without a lot of support right, like structural child care, paid parental leave and so on. So sometimes we're left with our tiny bandwidth to only teaching our little ones how to survive, and if we pause long enough, we can hear our wisdom that says, But teaching my kids how to survive the system is not the same as giving them a different childhood, like we all know this, right? So I think lots of grace to ourselves trying to do what we can. Yeah, it
KC Davis 18:00
reminds me, too, of, I think one of the biggest things that I learned when I got sober was, you know, I had really poor self esteem, and I wanted high self esteem, right? And I focused so much on that, and I realized, and I think it's actually, it might actually be like a CS Lewis quote, where he talks about, you know that, like, Oh, God, I'm going to butcher it, but something about the fact that, like, it's not about thinking higher of yourself. It's thinking of yourself less. It's not trying to fix how you think about yourself. It's trying to adjust the amount you think about yourself.
Nat Vikitsreth 18:42
Oh, and how did that unfold for you in action?
KC Davis 18:46
I think because, you know, when I thought that I was so awful and worthless, I was thinking about that all the time. I was interpreting all of the events around me as being about that. And then I got sober, and I started being like a productive member of society. But what I noticed was, even though I'm not doing these quote, unquote bad things, like, I'm not stealing, I'm not, you know, cheating, I'm not lying, I'm not being self destructive, I'm doing good pro social things, but I'm still thinking about myself just as much. And does this Okay? That makes me a good person, okay? That makes me Okay, okay. That makes me lovable. And I think the real freedom came when I just stopped thinking about what things meant about me in general. And I feel like that's like one of those first steps you're talking about, which is, is possible to think about what's the right thing to do without first thinking, like, how am I going to feel about the right thing to do? What is the thing to do? What does it mean if I don't do the right thing? What does it mean if I don't like, you don't have to have like, like a self reflection filter about your worthiness. You know what I mean,
Nat Vikitsreth 19:56
absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just so curious if I can ask a follow up question that thinking of yourself less, did that transform at all along your journey as you're practicing liberation or anti racism, at becoming an ally and accomplice? You
KC Davis 20:19
know, I think that, I mean, I come from a pretty liberal family that's always been involved in social justice causes, but what I found is that that happened as I deconstructed from evangelicalism. And I didn't deconstruct from faith completely, but I deconstructed from that sort of Puritanism, and that was the big part. And I remember the CS Lewis quote. It was about humility. It said humility is not thinking less of yourself, it's thinking of yourself less
Nat Vikitsreth 20:51
that is powerful,
KC Davis 20:53
which I think is powerful, especially in regards to social justice, like if we you know, we talk a lot about how important it is to be humble, and, you know, thinking about how awful you are for not taking action is also not being humble. That's like thinking about yourself a lot and kind of making it about yourself. Yeah,
Nat Vikitsreth 21:16
because another thread that we talk about a lot in our movement work is, who do we center, and who do we decenter? And the tension that we talked about in the beginning is there where it's such a human thing that we are hardwired for belonging. So of course, we're going to examine, Am I doing the right thing? Am I doing enough? Am I hurting someone? And on the other side of the same coin for us to move towards liberation together, it's not about me, it's not about you, it's about us. So is this action moving us closer to our values? What we the question that the parents in our come back to care community ask is, what's adaptive right now?
KC Davis 22:14
And where do parents start with that? Where do they start with, okay, I don't have enough to do. You know? I don't feel like I have enough to do 100% at home or 100% in the community. And so, you know, what do I do from here?
Nat Vikitsreth 22:30
Yeah, and it starts with how much bandwidth do I have, realistically, brutally, honestly speaking,
KC Davis 22:39
right? And do you encourage people to think of bandwidth, like, as because this is something that I feel like a lot of people struggle with, is that if you ask me, like, Can you do it? This is something I get onto my husband a lot, because he'll be like, Well, he'll be doing something at like, 11 o'clock at night. We were like, in the middle of, you know, doing something together, and he'd be like, well, they asked me if I could do it. And like, technically, I can, and I'm like, but can is more than just, are you physically able to do it? It's also about like, you know, there are other things in your life that you're allowed to prioritize. And like, am I looking for? You know, my bandwidth on a scale of one to burnt out, like, am I responsible for doing everything right to south of the, you know, one point before burnout, that's a hard question. What? Even, just like that first question about bandwidth,
Nat Vikitsreth 23:34
that is, that is, oh my gosh, I love this so much. Because how do we know? Especially growing up surviving capitalism, we, all, most of us, are trained to override our discomfort and produce and produce and perform and perform.
KC Davis 23:54
And I have this theory that that is why that is not only responsible for us overworking, but I think in places where we selfishly prioritize our own comfort or selfishly take more than we need, I think that comes from that same system, because if you know this system is going to push you until you break, and it's not going to give you your fair Share, the only way for you to not break is to just take what you can. Oh, you know, like it's, I think of it this way, like, if you never believed that, let's say that, like you have parents that every day when you woke up if you were sick, they never believed you and made you go to school anyways. Well, then you would eventually learn that, like, the only way for me to take care of myself is to be overly dramatic when I'm sick, or to, you know, to have to lie and manipulate and take more than what I need. And then I'll say, Well, okay, then if you won't let me rest, then I'll lie and say I'm gonna go work on homework, and instead, I'll go do this. You know what I mean? It's like. That sort of like, I have to be super comfortable all the time. I wonder if there's like, that flip side of the coin
Nat Vikitsreth 25:07
again, Casey. It's how the societal thing trickles down into our home, and then it gets reinforced. And when those who raised us weren't holding space and reflecting back, oh, you're sick. What do you need? Your body might need rest, and rest is equally important than productivity. Then how do we know? When are we overriding our limits? Right? And I had to relearn what that feels like in my body, and it's so dependent on you and your background and intersecting identity. But for me, I had to find that sweet spot Casey between discomfort and boundaries. Because yes, if I'm going to take action for justice and liberation, it's going to be past my discomfort, because risk is involved. But how far can I push that? It's not going to go beyond my physical, spiritual boundaries, and for me, if it goes past my boundary that I set, it becomes people pleasing, right? That I'm gonna do this because I want to be perceived as a good ally, as a good human, as a person who knows what she's talking about. I know that my throat will close up, palm sweating, yeah, was
KC Davis 26:42
talking about deconstructing from evangelicalism a minute ago. I think another big part of that is like having to deconstruct this idea that punishment is purifying, that like that, like pain is atoning. Because a lot of times, you know, I was talking to a friend recently, and they were talking about that same thing, about, like, scrolling on the end. It's like, okay,
Nat Vikitsreth 27:06
it's like, it's
KC Davis 27:07
a video of, you know, some really pick your tragedy, whether it's, you know, a black woman being murdered by the police, or, you know, people starving and Congo. And it's like, every I'm making myself watch it, and I'm not gaining any new information. From the video. I'm not being inspired to more action by like there's no there's no new information there for me to gain, to inform my actions in this it's simply that I feel as though being assaulted by the distress and the trauma of it is like making me a good ally, or that it would be selfish to not have to look at it because, you know, oh, now I feel so guilty about how privileged I am, and it's that interesting. Like, what do you think just putting yourself through the pain of witnessing that over and over and over is doing because if it's not giving you more information,
Nat Vikitsreth 28:09
right, and it drains you even further from the little bandwidth you have left to go take Action and this idea of self punishment that runs deep. That runs so deep, Casey, and then we mistake that for that's me being an ally for the day, consuming that information, hurting myself, right? And when I see parents that I work with who do this, and they love their kids so much, and as they're scrolling, and then their kids come in, bidding for connection, they snap, yell, the cycle continues. So I think a lot of us know this pattern so well. So what are the alternatives that we can spend our energy on?
Yeah, I will say one thing that has
KC Davis 29:08
really helped me is finding sources of information that I can proactively seek out as a and letting my and not like feeling like I have to consume every piece of information that's pushed to me, pushed to you, yeah? So if that's yeah, so that's like a reputable news site, or maybe one account that I can go and look up and see because they're giving updates on a situation. Or if it's like an organization that has sort of taken on something as their you know what they're talking about in action items like somewhere else that I can go, you know, whether it's once a week or once a day, and go, Okay, hey, what's going on with that situation XYZ and where I'm proactively like, made like, being knowledge. Or like being aware, like I'm proactively being aware, instead of just like reactively dealing with information being pushed to me about whatever that topic is.
Nat Vikitsreth 30:10
It takes so much self awareness. I'm not shaming social media. I'm human, and I'm on Instagram search page looking for cute animal videos, mainly squirrels and red pandas. And I love it, yeah for my body and my nervous system, the first five minutes, so blissful. I love it so much watching these fluffy animals. But beyond that, I start to notice my body just my brain turning into mush. I'm feeling kind of numbed out, and that tells me, Okay, I gotta put the phone down. So hard to do, but it's time. So it takes a lot of self awareness to know what your limits are and how much information do you need to go take action.
KC Davis 31:01
And if we're to talk about taking action, I feel like the actions that get PRI like, there is definitely a hierarchy of actions to take in, like, various liberation movies, right? And I feel like the top of that hierarchy is like, very like, patriarchy, coded, right? It's like people who can go out and be in protests in black block with their signs, and people who can make several videos a day, you know, updating a situation. And I'm just thinking about, like, all of these women who are, like, nursing babies and making dinner and, you know, like, I can't, like, there was a protest in my area the other day. And, you know, I don't know if you guys are super plugged into protest, but like, you don't often have a lot of time to be aware. Like, they'll tell you, like, tomorrow, six o'clock City Hall. And like, I would love to be a part of that, but like, I almost never can get childcare that quickly, right? You know. And sometimes you know, if you know, hey, it's a school board meeting in six weeks and an important issue is coming up. And like, okay, you can arrange for that. But you know, going to a school board issue isn't at the top of the hierarchy. No,
Nat Vikitsreth 32:17
it's not sexy, right? We often aim for sexy actions that are going to get the most coverage, the most visibility, the most Look at me.
KC Davis 32:31
I'm doing the and how do you help? We know when you talked about capacity, and I was thinking of capacity in terms of how much can I be involved in. You know, the causes that matter, but how do you talk to families about capacity, just of how many causes they can realistically keep tabs on and be active in at any given time? I mean, I remember, you know, I had a, this is like a little vulnerable to say, but I have, I for maybe eight months now, I've been running a campaign for Palestinian relief, and then, you know, I have a young child that's autistic that has eloped a couple of times, and one of the last times that it happened, the sheriff's department came over to visit with us and said, Hey, there's this program called Project Lifesaver, where We can issue a tracking bracelet to your daughter, and if she were to ever get away from you, like, we could find her within minutes down to the foot of where she is. And, you know, it's a free program, but there's a waiting list, and when they came to give it to her, you know, I asked, like, how many people are on the waiting list now? And he was like, Yeah, it's like, 50 families. You know, we're not, we're run by donations. We don't have any grants. We don't have any funding, like, so and so, like, I really wanted to, I talked to my husband about and I was like, I feel like we could get people together and clear this waiting list. And so I made a fundraiser for it, and I made a video for it, and when I went to, like, put it on the top of my link tree. You know, it was like, okay, that the Palestinian fundraiser raised a ton of money. And I had this moment of like, Am I allowed to do this? Do I have to keep them both on there is someone going to be angry with me, because I understand the genocide is still happening. But now I've switched to talking about this other issue, which is like a local issue, and it there was some conflict there. And so, like, how do you help families? Think about, you know, how many like am I like? Should I be keeping up with everything? And at what point is it me being selfish by only looking at, you know, the ones that affect me or the ones in my local community? Because surely, we need people to do both. But how am I supposed to think about
Nat Vikitsreth 34:41
that? Yes, oh, Casey, I'm letting that sink in. Right. When you talk about mobilizing people in your community for that program, there's that creativity and generativity and vitality in organizing. Your local community. Yes, it stems from a real need, but there's that generativity in there, right? That we often don't talk about. We talk about the suffering of, oh, I need to organize and mobilize to address this real issue. It's real. And when we gather people and we address the issues together, it's beautiful, right? And that's hope that I hope it can refuel us to do this work. And to your point about, how do I choose? There are 5000 issues, and the tension is, yeah, we can't be everything for everyone all the time with our limited capacity, but we keep our clear eyes and heart on the political analysis. We know that the issues in Palestine and the issue in our backyard are connected, the issues in black communities and the issues in trans community are connected the environmental issues and the indigenous issues are connected. So Grace and trust in our community that when we address one the ripple effects throughout the whole ecosystem,
KC Davis 36:22
you Wow, wow. That's really moving. I really feel I got kind of emotional in hearing that. And it's not like it's not, you know, it shouldn't be mind blowing. And I've heard people talk about, you know that before, but the way that you stated, it was very empowering. Maybe that's it. Maybe I usually hear it in terms of, you have to care about this, because this is related to this. And you know, if you don't care about this, then you you know, you don't understand. And as opposed to this idea of, where is your you know, what is your bandwidth and what is your capacity? And sort of that belief and knowledge of you know there are several different systems, like there's one system that is broken in several parts, right?
Nat Vikitsreth 37:10
That's right. And pick one, pick your entry point. The best teachers for me doing this organizing work Casey, are poor, working class, disabled women, mothers, femme identified bodies who have limited capacity, because they have to survive so many systems all at once. Yet they get together, yet they mobilize, yet they do political analysis, yet they take direct action within their capacities, because that's what they can do. And for me, when I work with parents, I ask, what's your gift? What can you bring to the table? And just do that. Let's not just aim for the sexy action or a one time donation, but can we aim for the boring, mundane stuff marim Kaba talks about, you know, she does boring things with protest and organizing, where they would go early to set up the space and leave last to sweep all the trash if you can't go to the protest. Can you do that? If you can't go to the protest, can you set up a spreadsheet that organize ride shares or pick up and drop off for people who want to be on site and protest. Or can you like, Hey, bring your kids if you want to go marching, I'll do childcare. Or I'll bring cookies to the meeting. And we all have our sites of change, school board meeting, Trader Joe's grocery person at checkout, our neighbor, our relative at the bus stop. The possibilities are, I think, endless.
KC Davis 39:14
So when we think about these various spheres of you know, influence, it also kind of strikes me that one of the questions is, like, where, if I'm looking at my bandwidth and it's, you know, this big or this big, like, in what ways is my participation most impactful, you know, like, where are my spheres of influence? And you know, you're going back to you talking about, like, okay, there's the sexy things to do, or there's the the main cause happening that you can kind of do and, and I think, you know this idea that what's hard, I think, is going, Okay, this is an important thing. I don't have a large sphere of influence. That overlaps with this thing. I don't have a heavy sphere of influence that will affect this thing. You know, I don't, maybe have a ton of finances that could move the needle or could contribute. But what I what I do have, can I do it? So maybe it is, even if this is the largest cause on everyone's mind, okay, I have a few bucks to give to this, and I can call, I can email a representative and share a Facebook post and like, maybe that's all my sphere of influence can really afford to do with this. But if once I've done it, like, can I then allow myself to go, okay, that's what I could do. And now, you know where the are, there other areas or things that I can do that are going to be you know that I can use my more of my other capacity for or that I could you know what I mean? It's kind of like I've done what I can do. There's no point of me continuing to have anxiety about it. There's no Pass Fail. There's no pass fail. I remember I had another friend call and was talking about, you know, I almost feel guilty having fun with my family when I know that, you know, and then fill in the blank that there's a genocide in Palestine, that there's a a genocide in Congo, that there is famine, that there is, you know, people being, you know, shot in their own homes, like I almost feel guilty going on vacation, or, you know, having a party, or, you know, sitting down and reading and wanting to call a friend of like, and something that I said to her, I didn't realize I really needed to hear it and it, I said, this is going to sound kind of shocking, but like, horrible tragedies have happened since the dawn of time, and people have always baked pies while they were happening. So I'm not saying ignore it or put your head in the sand or don't, but like, it's actually very weird that at this day and age, we can be so connected to every single tragedy that's happening. It's not normal for the scope of humanity, for us to be so in tuned with tragedies that we have so little sphere of influence over like it. Usually, if something was happening, it was because it was, you know, the town next door, or it was, you know, in your country, or somebody knew about it, or, you know, but at the same time, like there's people are still having babies and baking pies and wrestling on, you know, the floor with their kids. And I think sometimes that is hard. Am I allowed to continue to have joy? You know, without it's almost like a survivor's guilt,
Nat Vikitsreth 42:39
yes, and what I hear from the parents in my community too is I tuck my kids in at night, knowing that some other families don't get to do that, and getting Real about our capacity and what we can do while holding next to it all the tragedies that are happening to show up in solidarity with others. We gotta be ready. Our cup cannot be dry. We know this right? And the guilt is so real Casey, it's so so real. And to put my therapist hat on is to ask the question of, so how do we mobilize that guilt into action? But the human part in me, I carry that guilt too, like I was treating myself with pizza the other day, so excited to eat the first moment I opened the box, and I have my phone, my Instagram on the other hand, and I see pictures of children starving, or rather made To be starved. And it was a choice point. Am I gonna let the skill take over? Like, I know my body needs nourishment and my bandwidth needs to be replenished, my cup needs to be refilled so that I can go back and take action tomorrow?
KC Davis 44:18
Yeah, that sort of filter of like, sphere of influence is, I think, a really helpful for those moments where it's like, Can this feeling, this distress, this guilt, is whatever, like, Can this inform or mobilize me into an action item? Because sometimes the answer is yes, and sometimes the answer is no, no. There's not really any more action items here. You know, there's not
Nat Vikitsreth 44:41
That's right, that's right, that sweet spot before guilt turns into shame, we are okay. So what am I gonna do about it? Yes, my heart is breaking. What am I gonna do? Yes, I'm feeling guilty about the joy that I'm cultivating to fill my cup. What am I gonna do? And it could be, what am I gonna do tomorrow? Makeup is a little fuller, but right now, can I give myself grace and permission to cultivate joy? Right? Because, throughout history of organizing Casey, they're artists. They're poets who write as they process, who make art as they process their grief and rage and heartbreak, and who, mothers, femme, identified bodies and humans who bake pies, right? And I think we talked about that briefly, where there's always going to be oppression, people who put us in hierarchy of worthiness. But as long as there's oppression, there's always resistance, and sometimes resistance is taking place in the kitchen where I'm going to knead the pie dough together, mobilizing grief and heartbreak out of my body by moving bilaterally. At midline, there's rhythm, there's humming, there's music, there's connection with the land, with the spirits. They're swaying and rocking up the body. There are ways throughout history that people are unapologetically moving through grief and heartbreak well,
KC Davis 46:17
and just you saying that, you know, I think it finally hit me that it's not resistance if you're giving in to the despair, resistance is also resisting the despair, resisting the hopelessness, because those are the weapons of oppressive systems. And if you're not resisting that, it's not resistance.
Nat Vikitsreth 46:41
No, it's gaslighting ourselves into what the oppressors want us to do. And it's not moving the needle. It's not helping us stay in the struggle, right? If my trans community, my Asian immigrant communities, we can't afford other like more people burnt out and not take action.
KC Davis 47:05
Now this has been such a wonderful conversation. Can you plug yourself and your accounts and where can people find you and see more of what you do?
Nat Vikitsreth 47:16
Thank you for asking Casey. I can mobilize families and people to do this liberation work. But when it comes to talking about myself, I have no word. So please be patient with me. All of my information, along with my podcast, which is called come back to care. Is at comeback to care.com, and then work with parents and families, people who love and raise young children and want to heal their inner child wounds and internalized oppression wounds so they can really show up as an ally, as a parent, as a human, and do this liberation work for the long haul. Well,
KC Davis 48:01
I can't thank you enough, and we will put those in the show notes that people know where to go. And I hope that you have a wonderful day.
Nat Vikitsreth 48:09
You too, KC. Please take care. You.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai