117: Private Infant Adoption: Altruistic Act or Human Trafficking?
Today’s topic of adoption is a sensitive subject for many people. We are covering adoption from a different perspective as we talk to Stacy, an adult adoptee who belongs to a community of adult adoptees who are vehemently opposed to private infant adoption. Join us to learn more!
Show Highlights:
Meet Stacy and learn her story
An overview of differing views of adoption through the years (Are new laws needed?)
Examples of laws that are drawing negative feedback from adult adoptees
The expense of private infant adoption and the ethical dilemma of a more systemic problem
The ratio of parents looking to adopt and available infants
A closer look at adoption theology and open adoption
The US system that contributes to the number of desperate pregnant women and creates the perfect storm for exploitation, pressure, and propaganda
What adopted kids need to know
The adoption industry needs a different approach.
The nuances of adoption out of foster care
For many people, adoption into a “nice” family was/is a fantasy.
Stacy’s viewpoint on what to say–and what NOT to say–to adult adoptees
Stacy’s message to adult adoptees
Resources and Links:
Connect with Stacy: TikTok
Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook
Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning
We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes.
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KC Davis 0:00
Music. Hello, you sentient balls of stardust. It is KC Davis, your host. Welcome to Struggle Care. And we're going to talk today about something that is a bit of a sensitive subject for a lot of people. And we're going to talk about it from a perspective that you may not have heard before. I'm here in the studio with Stacy rebec, and we're going to talk about adoption. So Stacy, you are an adult adoptee, meaning you were adopted by your parents. And before we get started, tell me a little bit about yourself. So what do you do? And you know all that good stuff? Sure. So
Stacy 0:32
I'll probably limit it for my job, saying that I work for our state's court system in the IT sector, and I live in Topeka, Kansas. I'm 41 years old. Both my younger sister and I were adopted through domestic infant adoption to my parents. My mom also had relinquished a child at age when she got pregnant at 17 and relinquished a child at 18 before going on to adopt us later on. So we have lots of experience in our family. Yeah.
KC Davis 0:59
So you know, when I was growing up adoption, there was this very clear picture of adoption. It was like this very altruistic thing to do, and particularly if it was like an overseas adoption, right? Like, Oh, I'm getting a child from a country where they wouldn't grow up with anything, and I'm bringing them over here and saving them. And then the other sort of picture that I grew up with adoption is that it is this like fulfillment of all hopeful wishes for maybe parents that are experiencing infertility, and then I had some time in the evangelical church before I deconstructed, and they were huge about adoption, and so It was sort of like, partially a story about how much we need to save kids, and then, like, partially a story about, like, how much everyone deserves to have a kid. And so I was really, I don't know what the word is. I wouldn't say blindsided. That's too strong. But like, I had no idea about a year and a half ago when I stumbled upon a whole community of adoptees that are vehemently against private infant adoption. So let's just start there. Stacy, you know, tell me maybe a little bit about what you're kind of where you're at. And can you tell us anything about this community of adoptees?
Stacy 2:17
Sure. So there's a really great community, especially like on Tiktok, that I've interacted with, and there are kind of distinct segments within the community. There are adoptees that are from international and trans racial adoption, there are adoptees that came out of foster care, and then there's domestic infant adoption adoptees. And those worlds are similar, but they are very different in sometimes outlook and what methods they want to see changed in the adoption system. And that's great, like we can have productive conversations about that. And I specifically, I'll give an overview of some of the other ones, but I don't want to speak for anybody that is from foster care adoption or transracial or international adoption, because that is absolutely not my lane to speak in. But I'll give kind of an overview of a lot of the discussion is talking about the need for either Abolishment, in some cases, or at least a reckoning and read reorganization of laws to better help adoptees. A lot of the laws in place are really centered on adoptive parents and what is the best for them and what they want, which is understandable. You know, a lot of people that make the laws are adults who perhaps would like to adopt a child, and that's kind of where that has come from. And we really want to make it more child and adoptee focused in those respects. There is some disagreement about abolition versus not sure what the best word to use is, like reorganization
KC Davis 3:46
or like restructuring or reconstruction? Yeah, restructuring
Stacy 3:50
is probably the best way to think about it. I lean on the side of restructuring, specifically for domestic infant adoption. I think there are some really good arguments for Abolishment In other instances, but again, that's kind of outside of my lane to give my viewpoint on. Especially I do think for domestic infant adoption, restructuring of laws is really necessary. I will say I do live in Kansas, where we have one of the best set of laws for adoptees. You can get your pre adoption birth certificate fairly easily here, but that is a rarity among the states.
KC Davis 4:24
So you mentioned that because I was going to ask you know, you said that part of the problem is that a lot of the laws regarding adoption are geared towards what parents want, not what children maybe deserve or have a right to. So can you give us some examples of those laws that adoptees and adoptee advocates are not happy with, sure.
Stacy 4:46
So in some states, your records are sealed forever. You can try to petition the court to unseal your records in a certain in your certain case, but that is highly unlikely in some areas. Which means that you cannot easily find your biological family, which means you have a higher chance of not being able to catch like genetic illnesses and things that could be passed on. You don't necessarily have those risk factors that you can rely on. You could, in my instance, even though I had one in Kansas, and I found my family, Ma, I had a younger brother who is five years younger that litter up in the same city than me, and that's putting you at risk at procreating with somebody that you are siblings with, and that is very unfortunate. So having access to those records and your health records is vitally important for most adoptees, and in some states, you cannot access them at all. The best chance you have is doing a DNA test and by luck, connecting with somebody. So
KC Davis 5:47
one of the other, like kind of big paradigm shifts that I had when I was listening to adoptees, is also hearing birth mothers. And I apologize, I don't know if that's like the term that people prefer, or if there's a different term, I don't
Stacy 6:02
know for sure. I know my mother, who did again, give up a child, calls herself a birth mother, so in reference to her, specifically, we can say that. I don't know. I know biological parents. Some people really prefer to just say parents, but I think it's very individual at this point of what families
KC Davis 6:19
prefer. Well, for clarity sake, I'll say birth parent, but I've seen a lot of birth parents talk about how they regret their decision, and how at the time, their decision to put their child, their baby, up for adoption, was a decision in worst case scenarios. It was a decision of duress, where they were really pressured by private adoption agencies. And then kind of, some of the, you know, medium case scenarios, it was a decision made out of desperation, because of circumstances. And then, you know, maybe five years later, they find themselves in different circumstances, and they're going, why did those people convince me that this is what was best? Because, sure, at the time, I, you know, maybe didn't have somewhere to live, or I didn't have a good job, or, you know, I was on the outs with the Father, whatever. But, you know, five years later, and now, a lot of those circumstances have changed, and I don't have any access to this child anymore. And I don't think I had ever really heard, I mean, birth parents are hailed as simultaneously, this beacon of bravery, but also they're kind of like an NPC, like Silent character that you never hear from again.
Stacy 7:29
And I know things have slightly changed since my mother's story, but my mom got pregnant, and I will say I have her permission to share this. I specifically asked her beforehand if I could share pieces of her story. So I'm not talking without asking, but she got pregnant at 17 in 1963 while still in high school, and she had her daughter at 18, but she had to pretend that she wasn't pregnant during high school, she graduated, I think, like four or five months pregnant. Nobody knew. And then right after that, her parents drove her to another city, like she didn't really have an A stay in it, other than like, I'm not marrying that guy. Like that was her say. It was like, I'm not getting married. Just picked her up, drove her to stay with a family in another city so that nobody could see that she was pregnant. She had her baby. She didn't get to see the baby, although I guess her mother did, which is nice. She got to see baby before she was placed on for adoption, and then just came home and had to act like nothing happened. And so she we've had discussions about how it was a choice, but it wasn't really a choice. You can talk about people having a choice. And this, by the way, this predates roe by a decade, so that was really not an option at all. The choice was either you marry this guy. The choices she thought was, you marry this guy, or you put the baby up for adoption. And she knew there was absolutely no way she was going to marry this person, so she put the baby up for adoption. And that's not really a choice. When you look at it, right? There's not in that mindset. There isn't a choice. And I think nowadays, it still happens where people get convinced that, you know, you can't raise your baby like, what are you thinking of? You're young, you're poor, you're whatever. Here's this nice family, like they can provide so much more for them. And, you know, it's kind of crazy, because a lot of times families that I have seen, and I know this is not the case around the board, but families who adopt will get so much help from their church or their their community, they will be provided with diapers and clothes and all these kind of resources that maybe a young, poor mother wouldn't have and it makes you wonder if they were provided with those resources like perhaps they may not make that same decision.
KC Davis 9:53
That was one of the more eye opening things to me, was when people talked about how expensive it is for. Private infant adoption. And how okay, this family will go fundraise, and they'll get 1000s and 1000s, I'm talking, you know, 13,000 20,000 30,000 $50,000 and like you said, the church will have this huge baby shower and give them all of these things, and someone will give them a crib and, uh huh. And it was like, okay, but now we have this pregnant woman who the only reason she's making the decision to give up this baby is because she doesn't have access to those things, and yet, everybody can give it to this other couple. Like, why can't we just give it to this mother? And I know it's not that simple. Like, you're not no one's gonna require a private citizen to fork over 20 grand to, you know, a stranger that's pregnant, but just from a systemic view, it does sort of make you scratch your head like, you know, it's not always, or it doesn't even seem often someone being like, you know, what? I don't want children. That's not what I want ever, no matter the circumstances. And so I am gonna, you know, give my baby. It's like I do. I would want this baby if circumstances were different, and circumstances get moved for the people that want to take the baby, not for the mom that is actually having the baby?
Stacy 11:12
Yeah? And that's equity. There's a huge discrepancy in equity between the two situations, right? And I do think there are some scenarios I know for my adoption, and I have not met my biological parents. They did not choose, they did not want contact, and that's fine, but I know from research that my biological mother was very Catholic, and so when she got pregnant, she absolutely did not want another child at that point in time, but she didn't feel like she had other options either, because abortion was completely off the table for somebody that was very, very Catholic. And so I know that I was not a wanted child, as in, like, I want to keep this child. So that does happen. But again, it's not really like we can talk about choices. When you grow up with a lot of in some cultures, you don't the choice is not quite the same. I guess it's a nicer way of putting it,
KC Davis 12:06
which kind of brings me to, like, the next point that I learned that I'm wondering if you can speak to for a minute, because let's say that so it's not the majority that are in that spot right. The majority are making this decision out of desperation, circumstances, things like that. And if you were to only think about how many infants are available to be adopted by mothers who are saying, You know what? This is not desperation. This is not circumstance. I just I don't want to be a parent to this child, to another child. What would you say? Like, what's the percentage or like, the comparison of like parents who want to adopt an infant and available infants?
Stacy 12:51
There are more parents that want to adopt by a long shot than available infants. And I think when we talk about that, we kind of have to talk about adoption theology, because the pool of parents that want to adopt is not just parents that are struggling with infertility or anything like that, because adoption theology, especially, I think, since the 80s and 90s, has risen in popularity. You have a lot of parents that want to adopt because they think it is the good thing to do.
KC Davis 13:25
Because the picture is, here's this mother who, you know, doesn't want this baby or can't take care of this baby, and so you're the good person stepping in to take on somebody else's baby and make it yours.
Stacy 13:37
Yes, and they think it's a good thing to do. And some of these parents do adopt from foster care, and perhaps adopt children whose rights have already been terminated, and some of them don't. Some of them turn to either international adoption or pursue domestic adoption, or sometimes will sign up as foster parents for infants hoping to adopt, which I find problematic, which
KC Davis 14:02
is a whole other can of worms. And I do want to get into that. And what's interesting, though, that you can bring that up, is that every time I have listened to adoptees or adoption advocates talk about these things we're talking about, where they say, Hey, a lot of this is out of desperation. Hey, a lot of this, you know, whatever, somebody always brings up foster care, and that's a different conversation, right? Like, that's a different conversation, and there's still issues there, and we can talk about those. One of the other things that I thought of, too, is when I've heard a lot of birth mothers talk about, you know, I was made a lot of promises by these adoptive parents about how I would be involved in this child's life, and they would know me, and that's why I agreed to this. And then we come to find out that, like, that's not in the contract, that's not enforceable, that's just a thing, a nice thing. They said that after the rights are. Are formally handed over to the adoptive parents. We have a lot, and not not all of them, not every one of them, but we have, you know, a lot of people saying, and then they said they changed their mind, and I have not spoken to them since, and I have not heard from them since, and I have no right to be in this child's life. Yeah, open adoption is problematic in the United States, especially because our laws like and that, as far as I know, this is across the board for all states, the concept of open adoption is there, but there are not specific laws to ensure that that happens, right? So you can write it in. So it's open adoption, a legal type of adoption, or is it just an there's one type of adoption. And then there's like, whether you're doing a nice handshake on the side to say, we'll keep in touch.
Stacy 15:45
Yeah, it's like that. So it's just really just adoption, and that some contract can be written so that you say you want to give biological parents some input, or what have you. But in most cases, that's really not enforceable. And again, I'm not an attorney, so I can't speak to the intricacies, but I know that that is not enforceable in the majority of cases, especially for domestic infant adoption. And I don't want to say that a lot of parents are going and using that as a manipulation tactic, necessarily. Yeah, I think in a lot of instances, they really think that that's something that they want to do, and then when you have the child in your arms, you realize, like, oh, I don't actually want to share this with anybody. And that is not great, because that means that they didn't really put in the work ahead of time to realize what it meant,
KC Davis 16:39
right? Like, it's almost like not informed consent on the I do think some people
Stacy 16:44
do use that specifically as a manipulation tactic to try to force their arms. And that happens, and it's gross
KC Davis 16:51
so, and it makes sense to me, you know, if we have desperate, well, listen, we can't even get into how our country, here in the US is set up to create desperate pregnant women. We're rolling back reproductive rights. We don't have universal health care or universal paid maternity leave, and so we have this system that kind of uniquely puts women in a situation of desperation. And one of the other things that I think really opened my eyes, and I don't know what I thought before, like that adopt, that there's like an adoption ferry, that there's like an altruistic wing of the government, like, like, oh, you know, oh, it's a nonprofit, so it must be not. But like, adoption agencies are businesses, and they need to make money and turn a profit, and like any business in a capitalistic society, they have a problem of more demand than supply, and I'm not saying that that's I phrased that wrong, but like their response would be, like any business in a capitalistic society facing more demand than supply is we have to figure out how to get more supply. And it just seems like it's the perfect storm for exploitation, for pressuring and for propaganda and for, you know, like they literally have their own financial interests in mind when they're talking to a very vulnerable woman in a very vulnerable state trying to make one of the biggest decisions of their life, which just seems a little icky. Yeah,
Stacy 18:19
it is very icky. I've had my own run ins with some of the crisis pregnancy centers in town and people who work for them, and it is just so highly unethical that that they are kind of they work hand in hand with generally religious adoption groups, although I guess not necessarily all the time. I can't say that, but to kind of funnel women in who are perhaps looking to get an abortion or something else into instead supplying them with an infant. And
KC Davis 18:50
I mean, I'm gonna say something, and I know, listen, and I know that it is gonna be a triggering phrase for a lot of adoptive parents out there, but like, we're getting pretty close to human trafficking.
Stacy 18:59
Yeah, I definitely think in some scenarios that that is probably a good word for it. And I think domestically, that's probably more of a like a Ooh. Do we want to use that word? But in some cases, when you go, when you are going to a place where you think you're going to get health care, and instead, you are funneled by a religious group into changing your decision, or maybe solidifying your decision in a way where you weren't quite sure beforehand, who's telling you, perhaps inaccurate information about how your life will be afterwards. In regards to this child, I don't know of a better word for it, so
KC Davis 19:38
that they can take possession of that human being and then literally sell it. Uh huh, yeah. Okay, so now that we've offended and upset a lot of adoptive parents out there and perhaps adoptees that really love their families, let's take a step back and then kind of circle back and touch on some of those feelings that other people might be having, that maybe had a different experiences or adopted. Parents. You know, what is that like for adoptive parents to hear that kind of perspective? What has been your interaction with adoptive parents? Like, give us a little splash of cold water to the face, because it feels like we've got a little intense Yeah. So
Stacy 20:16
I have met a few people my age who have adopted children, and they've actually that I thought pretty open that I'm an adoptee and what my story is. And my mom and I talk to people about it, and they're like, Well, I'm adopting a child, and not necessarily even infant adoption, but like, what should I do? I want to make sure my child grows up fairly well adjusted, you know? What can I do? And when I tell them, like, Okay, well, you have to one. They have to know, grow up knowing that they're adopt, not something you can either spring on them or hide from them, which I grew up knowing I was adopted. My mom was very intentional with that, so that it wasn't like a big surprise or shock when we were older, and so that, like, my health records were accurate and things like that. And it is not that suggestion is usually not met well, because they feel it's almost like a sense of ownership of child. And that's not I want to be clear that that is not just adoptive parents who feel that way. I think a lot of parents feel like an ownership rather than like, almost like, like the child is an object rather than a child, in those regards. But so they don't want to tell them, and they don't want them to grow up knowing that. They said, Well, maybe we could tell them when they're older. And I, I'm pretty frank with them. I'm like, you know that is a big betrayal when they find out when they are older, like you will have the best chance of a good relationship with your child if you are open with them about it and their experiences from the time that they are very little like that. You don't have to like go into details with a two year old about why all of this happened, right? But there are age appropriate ways to introduce it very young, and I know because that's how we were raised. So
KC Davis 21:54
yeah, well, and I would imagine that most adoptive parents their hesitation in telling their kid is probably not a malevolent reason, like, I definitely would imagine that most, as you know, as most parents like, we're like, I don't want my kid to feel singled out. I don't want them to feel like they weren't wanted. I don't want them to feel like, you know, they're not 100% my kid and loved and all these kind of things. And I would imagine that that's what's driving most parents fears is like them wanting to be a good parent and feeling protective of their child. Yeah, I think, to your point, though, it's, you know, it's a big thing. It's pretty damaging. It sounds like for to have that sprung on you later in life. I would imagine,
Stacy 22:40
I think there were a couple. I mean, obviously with trans racial adoptees, you can't really, like, hide that. So there, growing up, there were a couple of kids that I went to school with. They were all also adopted. And our family and the few that had adopted internationally were the only ones that were fairly open with their children, like on the offset of what had happened, and then a few of them got dropped on them in their teens, and let me just say I would not make that choice seeing the reaction of that happening. So, so
KC Davis 23:09
we've talked a lot about, you know, what are certainly generalizations. Like, it's not this is not every circumstance of adoption, but they are systemic problems with the adoption industry, at least in this country, would you say that it's unethical to ever do an private infant adoption?
Stacy 23:28
I don't. I don't like
KC Davis 23:30
saying no. You don't like saying black or white, yes, no, total answer, yeah,
Stacy 23:35
yeah. I think it is problematic at best, systemically right now to participate in domestic infant adoption, but I don't also think that it is always unethical. I do know a few adopted biological parents who were in places that they didn't want to be, but they also didn't go through. They went through there's you don't have to go through an agency to adopt. You can find family, friends or whatever to or like friends of friends, and do a private adoption that way. From experience, I tend to think that that is more ethical, but it comes with other problems, because if you do that, that's actually how our adoptions were, like it was through a doctor or friend that my parents knew. But when you do that, then you tend to adopt a child and live in the same area as the biological parents, which has its own issues, right? And most agencies are very careful to not place children in the same area so that there can't be like accidental incest, because nobody wants that. But I think you're less likely to get a coerced decision in situations like that that not that it's perfect, right?
KC Davis 24:46
Well, and it does seem like this isn't about demonizing individual people. This is about sort of pointing out some very systemic exploitation and how high the risk is. It. Seems like we need a different approach to this industry in general. And it doesn't mean that there's never a circumstance where someone is, you know, engaging in a private infant adoption that is not, you know, that is wrong, I guess is what I'm saying. Yeah,
Stacy 25:16
and I have my personal thoughts on a women should always have a right to choose whatever scenario works best for her. I really have a hard time saying that, yeah, because what if that's what she wants to choose? We should move towards abolition. Yeah, because there are situations and we can talk about the motives behind her making that decision like you know, whether it is she had a very strong religious upbringing, and that really is her only decision in her mind, there her only option in her mind, like that is a different situation than that. Is a different question. Rather than having that off the table entirely, right, their motives behind it could be problematic, but I still think that the pregnant person should have the final say about how this goes, because she maybe have a revulsion to the idea of abortion, which is fair, I guess, but perhaps this baby is product of rape or product of something else, and she never wants that child. I feel like she should have the option to do adoption. I do think in those instances there needs to be something in place so the adoptees have their full health record, and even if they don't make contact with their biological family. Know enough about it, so we don't have surprise incest. Because I know in some situations that has happened, of course, that is not like an adoption specific thing that can happen with like sperm donors and men stepping out on families and all kinds of things. So that is not like just an adoption thing, but we can try to plan for those scenarios, right, so that we don't have those pop up as much as possible.
KC Davis 26:53
So you referenced foster care earlier, and you know, one of the things that that I have a little bit of experience only because my husband and I attended some foster care training, because we were considering becoming foster parents. And one of the things when we went into, like, the initial meeting, like the very first thing they said to all of us was, if you have infertility trauma that you have not addressed, I need you to get up and go home and address it before you go through this process. And they really hammered home to us that the goal of foster care is reunification, and that that should be what we're striving for. And that, you know, if it comes to a place where reunification isn't safe or possible, then that's when we need to look at adoption, but you kind of referenced it earlier. We have, we see a lot of parents, I think, go into foster care, hoping that a parent will not get their act together and that a family will not reunify. And I think there's a I mean, and I've had some friends that have adopted children from foster care, and like, there's a really big difference. I want to be clear what I'm saying. Like, you know my friend who fostered a young boy, and then got to the place where, like, there was a point in time where he was hoping that the rights would be terminated, but that was because of the biological parents behavior, because they were not safe and there was no indication they were going to be safe. And that was sort of his love of this child, is this is not the best place for that child that's different than, right? Because that's based on the facts of the situation, of what's best for the kid that's really different than entering the foster system and just generally going, Oh, I really hope we get one. I really hope this parent that I have not met, that I do not know, you know, I hope they don't get their shit together. I hope they fail at reunification so I can have a kid. That's a completely different thing. And unfortunately, I think even kind hearted people don't recognize that's kind of what they're hoping for when they enter into foster care. The other interesting thing that I think comes up in the conversation about adoption is that there obviously are adoptees that have had different experiences, that have different feelings about adoption, you know, biological parents or birth parents that have different experiences. But one of the things that I have noticed is that the demographic that you maybe wouldn't initially expect to have such a vehement sort of push back on some of these talking points are kids that grew up in abusive situations, in neglectful situations, that are sort of reflecting on their own trauma and going, you guys are complaining, I would have given anything for someone to have rescued me out of this situation and put me into a different family. And I just think that that's a very valid perspective and feeling to. Have. And so I just think that's important. Like, not everybody having sort of strong reactions or feelings to this conversation is Oh, so you're for human trafficking. Like, that's not the case. Like it is complicated to grow up and not be taken care of. And I think for a lot of people that grow up this way, adoption is almost this fantasy, uh huh, you know what I mean, this, this almost Daddy Warbucks. What if I could be taken away from here by a nice family that would really take care of me? And I think that sometimes, whether we're conscious of it or not, some of that can play into sort of the way we address the adoption industry at large, in general.
Stacy 30:38
I agree, because I've seen some of those people that are very angry and adoptees comment sections. And like their hurt is understandable. And like, I understand that I don't know that they are productive and their outlet for it. I understand where it comes from. Take it to your therapist. Yeah, they're a better way. There are better places to express this, but, yeah, no, that is completely valid. I think the trouble with any government organization, or anything that handles basically any government organization, because generally it's even if they have private contractors, you know, sync and DCS are government programs. And with any government program, it's imperfect, and they're going to do too much and too little at the same time, right? It's almost impossible for them to do it completely correct, right? There, you're going to miss families, and then you are going to come down too hard on families, depending on the factors at play. You're like, right? What judge Are you in front of? Is your guardian ad litem? Like, what biases do they bring into this situation is the foster family really like, oh, like working for reunification and hoping that they that your the child goes back with the family? Or are they really just secretly hoping to get this over quick enough so that they have the child in their home? And so it creates both scenarios where kids get probably ripped out of their homes more than they should, but also we they miss children who are left in abusive homes and who want to be like, taken out of their house and into another situation. And so, you know, I don't know that there's a way to change that enough to ever that they'll
KC Davis 32:14
never be a mistake one way or the other. And then, speaking of like being up in comment sections, what are some of the Give me some of like, the best and worst responses that people have when they hear adoptees talking. Like, what would you say? Like, hey, this is not a helpful thing to say. This is not a supportive thing to say. Versus like, what is an appropriate response to someone sharing as an adult adoptee? Because the one that comes to mind, honestly, is the You should be grateful. Yeah.
Stacy 32:41
Like, you should be grateful. It's gross and like, and also like, oh, did you want to live with your drug addicted parents? I've seen a lot, and I'm like, that first off, that is not even like, I can't even say that's like, the majority of families. Like, like, you're just like, pulling scenarios out of the air and being like, would you rather live with these No, like, I love my parents. I wouldn't have rather grown up in another family, but also, like, for one that wasn't true. But what if that was true? Like that is like, why would you say that to somebody that doesn't do anybody good? Referencing? Oh, well, you could have ended up dead in your family. I've seen that in comment sections, which is super inappropriate, or people. I also don't think it's awesome. Like, again, I understand that people had terrible scenarios growing up, but trauma dumping What happened to you to make somebody else feel bad, you know, like they didn't experience that is also weird. Like, Oh, well, my father did this to me, so you should be grateful that you got adopted. Like, that's weird. Like, don't
KC Davis 33:42
also, like, adoptive parents can do bad shit too. Oh, yeah, absolutely, it's not a guarantee, just because you got adopted. And then Stacy, sort of wrapping up, what would you say to maybe adult adoptees that are listening, that may be thinking of these things for the first time, or experiencing some of the like, did you have conflicting feelings? Was there a part of this that was difficult for you?
Stacy 34:07
So as an adult adoptee, I think you really if you are wanting to find your biological family, I think the biggest thing to prepare yourself for is that they may not want to find you right like or they may welcome you with open arms, but they're dysfunctional, or they may have been looking for you for a long time. You may not find them. You may find them and they don't want contact with you. Yeah, they might have died before you got to meet them. You really have to make sure, I would say, talk to a therapist and make sure that you are really prepared for any of those scenarios, because you don't want to go in with a fairy tale scenario in your head, because then that's the other thing we see. Is we see a lot of scenarios where adoptees meet their biological family and it's just roses and awesomeness and things like that. And that can happen like my mom has been in contact with her. Daughter for years, like, we went to her wedding back in 1994 we were, you know, we weren't in her wedding or anything like that, but we went to met her. We're in her wedding. Like, my parents don't want any contact, which is, again, fine like that. I mean, it's not fine because, like, medical history would be nice, but I don't think they also owe it to me at the same time, if that makes sense. And my sister has gotten in contact with both of her parents, and she has a good relationship with one of them, at least. So just, you just need to prepare yourself. And also, the reason why I kind of step back, and I don't really have a whole lot of videos on my Tiktok about this I deleted most of them, is because there is a lot of tension between how people process their adoption, and I decided that, because I have kind of my situation was better, I didn't find it productive to go in and counter other people's arguments, necessarily, because it's not I mean, I didn't want other people to feel like I was negating their experience, even though I Have a perhaps different outlook of what should be done to remedy the whole adoption scenario, right? But I worry about inviting in comment sections and video replies and how productive that is to the larger discussion. So I really would suggest, if you want to engage with these topics, like in a public atmosphere, that go to therapy and you really have a good handle on yourself before you start talking online in those spaces. So, yeah,
KC Davis 36:30
that's all really helpful. And I think, you know, as a therapist, I feel like the hardest thing for any person to do is to hold two truths at the same time. And, you know, I think that it can be true that you have feelings about your adoption and about and maybe anger or distress about, you know, the problematic aspects of adoption in general, and you love your parents, and you've had a good life, and you don't want to hurt your parents feelings. You know what I mean? Like, I just think it's important to say that, like everyone has that permission to hold two truths at the same time.
Stacy 37:10
I've been very fortunate that my mom my dad has passed. So I'm talking just about my mom currently has been very open, and we can talk about this subject because, you know, from a birth mother perspective and adoptee perspective, and sometimes we hurt each other's feelings, and that's okay. We just talk through and work through it, that having these conversations is really helpful, not only to us, but so that we can work to make the future a better place for other adoptees and how these systems continue on. Yeah,
KC Davis 37:40
it really isn't about anyone being the good guy or the bad guy. When it comes to talking about individual adoptive parents and adoptees, it really is about all of us being human. And I think most people are doing the best that they can with the information that they have at the time. And we're all growing, and we all make mistakes, and, you know, not kind of moving out of that adolescent phase of seeing everything in black and white and needing everyone to be sort of, you know, morally perfect. Well. Stacey, this has been a really great conversation, and I appreciate it so much. Do you want to plug anything of yours, your Tiktok handle, or anything like that? Sure. I
Stacy 38:17
think I'm drowning Ophelia at on Tiktok. Let me just verify before, before
KC Davis 38:21
you send them to somebody else's pain. Yeah, that's
Stacy 38:23
terrible. Yeah, no, I'm drowning Ophelia, because that is a name I have picked out for my online handles when I was 16, and I haven't changed it.
KC Davis 38:31
I love it. So awesome. Thank you. You.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai