20: Disingenuous Communication: the Ace of Spades with Heidi Smith

Games people play: we’ve all been guilty at one time or another, whether intentionally or not. I’m referring to the disingenuous forms of communication we use in daily life. There are various reasons why we alter our communication in certain situations, and it’s usually because we want something from another person. I’m joined by Heidi Smith, LPC, and one of my best friends, who just happens to be my former supervisor when I was learning to be a therapist. Let’s dive deep into games, manipulation, boundaries, and relationships. Join us for the conversation around this fascinating topic!

Show Highlights:

• Is it disingenuous communication, manipulation, or something in-between?

• Why attention-seeking behavior might really be connection-seeking behavior

• The “games” people play: The trump card, (the “Ace of Spades”), is the issue, trauma, circumstance, or affliction that someone believes gives them carte blanche to never have to change and to always be accommodated by others.

• Examples: ADHD, PTSD, a serious illness

• Some people learn the script to say that excuses them from accountability, like “I’m working on it.”

• Even with their objectionable behaviors, people deserve and want to be loved and accepted. 

• Why, in our relationships, we have to be well and not allow others’ behaviors that damage us

• How different people have different tolerance levels for discomfort in relationships

• The most powerful, insidious trump card: “If you do/don’t do _______, I will kill myself.”

 Resources:

Connect with KC: TikTok, Instagram, and Website 

Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning

• Transcript

  KC Davis 0:06

  Hello you sentient balls of stardust. Welcome to Struggle Care with your host, KC Davis. We are the podcast that talks we, who's we, me, just me. I am the podcast that talks about self care with self compassion when life is hard. I have Heidi Smith, licensed professional counselor in the podcast studio with me today say Hi, Heidi. Hello. And I recently was posting on Tik Tok about, it's kind of this little series I'm doing it's called games we play and it's about sort of psychological games. But the way that I say it, it's about disingenuous forms of communication. And there's been a lot of questions come up and things like that. And for those of you don't know how to use to be my supervisor, when I was learning how to be a therapist, she has now become just my best friend. But I wanted to have her back on the podcast to talk about these games, because you're actually who I learned the games from. And let me start with this. The reason why I refer to them as disingenuous forms of communication is because I feel like the word manipulation has like way too much baggage and has like a different definition. Depending on who you ask. Well, it's very villainizing.

  Heidi Smith 1:21

  Exactly. It's like it, there's so much, you know, like evil intention behind the word, it seems to me. Yeah, it's just whereas I think people are a lot of times just doing what they know to do. And they're not really like, you know, on purpose manipulating in the traditional sense,

  KC Davis 1:37

  Right. And because I had somebody asked me like, because they asked, like, does manipulation always have to be intentional for it to count as manipulation. And that's why I brought up like, I'm actually just specifically not going to call it manipulation because of that exact reason. And as someone who like, when I was in rehab, we talked about manipulation a lot. And that was like a big, like club I felt like they used was they'd be like, well, you're just manipulating right now. And it almost became like a thought terminating cliche, like, we never investigated, like, why I was communicating in that way. It was always just like, you're being bad, knock it off.

  Heidi Smith 2:14

  Yes. And I mean, it's, you know, we can I won't go too far into this, but I actually run an addiction treatment program. And I run into that a lot. Even the staff will be like, well, so and so's just full of shit. And he's just manipulating. And I really confront that a lot. I'm like, but like, why? I mean, he so are you? Is the theory, the working theory that he's just an evil human being? Or is this indicative of like, what's deeper, that we need to unpack with him of like, how he does life? And I think it's like something people throw out there, you know, and it's so accusatory in nature. And like you said, it's like, well, then how do we help with this behavior, you're noticing, and you're calling it manipulation. But you know, it's like a wholesale condemnation, you know, where people are just like, he's just manipulating. And it's like, it's not helpful.

  KC Davis 3:03

  And we're gonna get into some of the various games and things. But almost on that topic, I feel like there's a lot of things like that, that, like, become almost like, so for those of you don't know, a thought stopping cliche. What that means is like a term or a concept that is literally meant to stop any further critical thought. So an example might be in the spiritual community, like, let go and let God which is like, well, that ends the conversation. Like, you can't really have any, what objection? Could you have to that? Like, Why could you know, just like, Oh, my God, you know, just trust God. Like, that's a thought stopping cliche. And I feel like there are a lot of clinical thought stopping cliches, and that's one of them, but the other one is, like, attention seeking.

  Heidi Smith 3:44

  Oh, yeah. He's just attention seeking. Yes. I can't stand Yeah, they're just they're

  KC Davis 3:48

  just attention seeking. But like, why? Yeah. Also like, like, it's okay to want attention. Like, I heard somebody once because I see that also in like parenting circles and teachers and things like, well, that's just attention seeking behavior. And so a lot of times, we'll be like, we'll just ignore it, just ignore it. But what's interesting to me is I heard a parenting coach one time, say, if you instruct teachers to replace the word attention seeking with the word connection, seeking, how does that change how you view that behavior and how you respond that behavior? I love it, because it would like, okay, there's connection seeking behavior, and maybe they're doing it in a way that is self destructive, or they're doing it in a way that's actually like pushing people away. But then it makes you think, like, Okay, so our job is how do we meet that need for connection in a way that doesn't like further these unhelpful behaviors? How do we help this person go about a different way of seeking connection, whereas when you call it like attention seeking, it makes it seem like, well, they have this like desire for more than they should have and they should just stop being entitled and they should just like it He'll get over it. Well, yeah, like,

  Heidi Smith 5:02

  I mean, again, in conclusion, like you're, I mean, it's kind of I mean, that's like So in conclusion, like, they're just attention seeking, and so they just suck. I mean, it's like, I guess that's the end of the story. I mean, like you said, it's like, it's completely unhelpful. And ultimately, like, I think the goal, you know, a lot of therapy too, is to help a person see, like, what's working and what's not working. And so being able to say, like, hey, the way you act, when you're seeking connection, like is actually off putting, and it's getting you like the opposite result. And so like, let's try and figure out how you can like, get your the connection that you so desperately desire. Like, without creating the opposite effect for yourself. I think that's like, the end goal of a lot of therapy is to look at like, this isn't good or bad or right or wrong. It's like, is it working for you is it like getting you the desired result out of your life

  KC Davis 5:55

  and like, not villainizing, the underlying need, or even sometimes the behavior, like I talk a lot about how, you know, finding out that I have ADHD later in life, and looking back on a lot of my treatment and therapy experience, and feeling like a lot of the things that I was told was just me being like, entitled, and selfish and self absorbed was just me having ADHD like me, interrupting people a lot me talking over people, me like talking too much. Like, I could tell you what I'm thinking and feeling when I'm doing those sorts of things. And, like, I was never thinking, I'm more important than you. I'm smarter than you. I deserve more time than you like, I'm always thinking, this is such a great conversation. Oh, my God, I have a thought. I don't want to forget my thoughts. I really do. Yeah, exactly. And I really wish that more therapists would have said to me, like, Hey, I noticed that you interrupt a lot, like what's going on with you when you do that? And then believed me about my motives, and was able to say like, okay, like, it's okay, that your brain works that way. And like, you'll find people and contexts where like, that's a way of communicating that is really welcomed. But like, you're literally using that behavior to seek connection and to participate in relationship. And for some people, and in some contexts, that is going to have the opposite effect that you want.

  Heidi Smith 7:22

  Yeah, exactly. It's like teaching you that that really isn't working for you, and that you might need to like learn some kind of personal discipline, and your communication style to like, allow other people to fit, you know, I mean, that's like, we're almost like a little bit of behavior modification comes into it is like, Hey, there's this behavior. I keep getting feedback about it. I feel like misunderstood that either way. I'm going to like adjust so that I'm not making people feel that way anymore.

  KC Davis 7:50

  Yeah. Okay. So let's talk about the game. Okay. So the first game that I was talking about on my channel is the trump card, which is like also known as like the ace of spades, right. And so if people don't know what trump card literally means is like when you're playing spades, there is a card that beats all other cards. And so it's called the trump card. And so the trump card is when somebody basically has like an issue, or a trauma or an affliction or a circumstance that like they believe gives them like carte blanche to never have to change never have to look at it, they believe it means that they can demand that everybody accommodate them, and they don't have to accommodate anybody. And so like an example would be like, let's say that your partner like flies off the handle, when they get angry, and you like, confront them about it, and you're like, hey, like, it's not okay, that you like punch walls when you're angry. It scares me. And they say, like, well, I just, you know, I grew up in a really traumatic environment where no one ever listened to me. And so like, when I get scared, and I feel like no one's listening, like, it just comes out. And it's like, that's an okay explanation. And that's fine to say that. But if they then keep doing the behavior, and like, refuse any opportunity to like, learn to change the behavior, or care about how it affects you, and they just keep saying, like, well, you have to deal with it, because that's my trauma. That's what trump card means.

  Heidi Smith 9:19

  Right? Sorry. Like, this is just who I am and what I have to work with. And like, you just get to deal with it. I mean, the other it can be even, like, done on a more minor level, like, you know, like, we always joked I have a rare form of leukemia, I'm fine. But like, we always joke about me using the cancer card. You know, like, if somebody would, you know, confront me on something, I'd be like, well, you know, I do have cancer. And so it's like, it can be, you know, as small as and even my son, you know, will use like his dog, you know, our dog died when he was like five, and I mean, at 11 years old, he's still if he's in trouble, he'll be like, I'm just upset about and we're like, we'll get to use that and you More like it's over. So I mean, it can be obviously like these more global issues of like, Hey, I'm using, you know, like, yes, traumas very real, like it's got to be addressed, you've got it. But again, like, you know, we've been talking about it's like about figuring out like, you know how to put that in its proper place and not always use it, you know, to like not grow yourself up.

  KC Davis 10:21

  I think it's really timely that like, we started by talking about, like, the thought stopping cliches that clinicians and like the therapy world will use. Because sometimes I think that the trump card is like born out of a response to that, like, if I've been like, beat down my whole like, you know, childhood about like you interrupt because you're selfish, you interrupt because of this, you interrupt because of that. And then I find out like, oh, like, actually, I have ADHD. And this was like one of the most common behavioral signs of ADHD. And it happens because, like, if I don't talk, I'll forget what I'm saying. And I'm really excited. And my thoughts are moving so fast that I want to do this, like overlapping style of communication. So sometimes born out of the trauma of me always being told that it's actually just that I'm a piece of shit. I will sort of swing to the trump card. Yeah. And be like, sorry, I

  Heidi Smith 11:18

  have ADHD.

  KC Davis 11:19

  Yeah, like, you and I are talking and you come to me one day, and you're like, Hey, I just wanted to like express to you that I've noticed that you interrupt a lot when I'm talking. And it makes me feel like you don't care what I have to say. And that makes me feel like, you know, I can't get a word in edgewise. And if my response to that is like, it's just because I have ADHD, like, you shouldn't feel that way. And I just, like, refuse to consider your feelings. And I feel like, well, because that is from my ADHD, like, you don't get to be upset about it. That would be me being the trump card. And at the same time, like, I don't want to villainize the trump card, like anybody that uses the trump card is just like a piece of shit manipulator that you should throw out the window. Like, I think that there's like a reason why we move to that sort of protective

  Heidi Smith 12:02

  stance, we and I think it's all about, like you said, it's like, is it just a shutting down technique, where it's like, well, sorry, you know, I was in Iraq, and I've got PTSD. And this is just how I am, versus like, you know, what they, I know that I have a lot that comes up for me and like intense situations, because my experience overseas, and like, I'm working on it, and you know, you deserve better, and I'm sorry, and I'm going to keep trying to do better. You know, like, that's a way where you can like, say, like, Hey, I know where this is coming from. But like, I also understand that it's not acceptable. And I'm so you know, it so yeah, of course, like, it's not that you don't get to have that be part of your story. You know, your truth and your experience and your trauma, but it's about whether you're using it to like just tell everyone to shut the fuck. Or if you're using it to, you know, to be better and to grow towards something new and to grow yourself up and, and whatnot.

  KC Davis 13:00

  Okay, so we're gonna take a short break to hear from a sponsor, and we'll come back and I have some follow up questions. Okay, we're back with Heidi Smith. So I think what we've been talking about makes it really helpful to determine the difference between someone who is saying, like, well just deal with it. Like, that's a really obvious trump card. And then you have someone that kind of has that approach that you talked about, which is like, yeah, man, like Mia culpa. This is where it came from. But you're right, like, I'm going to work to mitigate the damage of that behavior. But from that person, I think sometimes we then we have another divergence, which is that sometimes we learn that that's the script we can use to like, get someone to like, get off our back. But we don't actually have any intent. Absolutely.

  Heidi Smith 13:42

  Then it's been it becomes your line. Yeah.

  KC Davis 13:46

  That becomes like your new trump card, almost like then it becomes

  Heidi Smith 13:50

  working on it.

  KC Davis 13:51

  I'm working on it. Oh, you're right, babe. And the truth is, like, if we're gonna go, like, really big example, like a lot of extremely abusive people, like physically abusive people, and emotionally abusive people, like that is the line. Oh, God, Honey, I'm so sorry. You deserve better, you should just leave me. Like, that's definitely you can say that genuinely. And you can say that in a way that is continuing to engage in disingenuous communication, of course,

  Heidi Smith 14:21

  shading. I mean, if you're, if it's just a placation, then there's nothing to it, you know, obviously, there'd have to be like realness behind it. And so yeah, I mean, the trump card is like, deep and complex, for sure. And you know, it's, but the nice thing is, I think it gives a, some vocabulary to a behavior that a lot of people experience. And so even as a therapist, it's nice to be able to have that term where it's like, if you can really educate your client or you know, whoever your friend on this idea, then it's like, it can become a part of kind of your working vocabulary of like, oh, man, I know I just use the trump card. I'm sorry. Are you know, and so that's what I love about these, like the kind of how you've coined the games we play.

  KC Davis 15:06

  So the question that somebody asked was, What if they want to change their behavior, but genuinely do not know what steps to take to do so? And I think that's a good question. And I think sometimes I take for granted that as a therapist, I've just had a lot of experience, and being able to recognize the difference between someone who is communicating genuinely when they say, like, I'm going to change, it's going to be different. It's just going to take me some time, and someone who that's just become their new way to placate because, well, the interesting thing that happens, especially when I make content about behaviors that are damaging is like, I'm usually talking to like the person on the other side, like, how can I recognize when I'm being taken advantage of, so that I can sort of either deal with that or get out from under it or stop getting sucked into these games, what happens is that somebody will always sort of speak up on the other end, and they'll say, I am the person that like, can't stop flying off the handle. And I want so badly not to, but like the trauma is so deep. And when I listened to you talk about this, like it scares me because I feel like, I also deserve to be loved, like, I don't deserve to be just left because like, this was my lot in life, like, because I happen to be the one that went through the most horrific circumstances that like I genuinely was left with so few skills, that it's taking me so much longer than everybody else to like, get to a place where my behaviors aren't damaging to others. And like, don't I also deserve love? Don't I also deserve connection? Don't I also deserve relationships? Like, don't I also deserve someone who will be patient with me? And walk through this with me? And I think that that is so valid? I don't know, if you have thoughts on that.

  Heidi Smith 16:47

  I mean, it's just so raw, it always made me want to cry, you just, you know, talking about that. Because it's true. It's like, you know, again, it's easy to villainize, you know, people who have really objectionable behaviors, but you know, at the end of the day, like, they're human beings who want to be loved and need to be loved. And so yeah, it is, it's hard, because on the one hand, I do so much coaching around boundaries, which is another thing you and me could talk about for probably three hours. But then on the other hand, it's like the person who continues with such objectionable behaviors, really needs resources, they don't always just need like boundaries being you know, enacted, you know, on them as much as they need support. And so, you know, therapy.

  KC Davis 17:32

  So the interesting thing that happens there, so then like, we begin to talk towards that person of like, you are deserving of love, like, you deserve support and resources. And then what will happen is, the person will speak up and go, This is how I got trapped in like, a marriage, or this is how I got taken advantage of for 20 years, because, like, I just kept thinking, I know that they're hurting me, but like, they just deserve someone to walk through this with them. Like, they just, you know, I should stick it out, like, I'd be such a bad person if I left them in their lowest moment. And it's interesting to try and have that conversation, knowing that both of those parties are listening.

  Heidi Smith 18:10

  Yeah, and like, at the end of the day, there's just a lot of sadness. And you know, like, when you're dealing with wounded people, which we all are, like, we all, you know, have such woundedness in different ways in different areas, and it looks different. But in those situations, like even the scenario where there's maybe a marriage, and there's just a lot of sadness, and things aren't always gonna look, you know, the way that maybe the husband or the wife wants it to look, but I think there's a way to, like, separate with kindness, you know, when that's indicated, that still supports and loves both individuals. So via I mean, life's really messy. And when you add in all our woundedness, and all our trauma, and you know, and trying to, you know, get all of our needs met and be kind and compassionate, and you know, and be empathetic to everybody's story.

  KC Davis 18:59

  It's hard. And I think, like, I like to try and come up with principles or guidance that can help someone sort of determine, Okay, is this a scenario that I should stick with? Or is this a scenario that like, is I should leave, and it's not that hard to do if you have like a specific person in front of you, but it's really challenging to come up with like universal concepts or guidance that can help people I don't even think it's possible, but I do think that there's one like phrase and we have a friend named Angie, that's also a therapist, and I don't know if Angie said this first or you said this first or who but like, there's this phrase that y'all used to use where you would say like, you shouldn't set yourself on fire to keep somebody else warm.

  Heidi Smith 19:40

  That's definitely an Angie phrase. Yeah. Yeah.

  KC Davis 19:43

  And I feel like there comes this point where like, Yes, everyone deserves love. And yes, like, you know, people do like deserve someone to deserve connection and community even if they have the more objectionable behaviors, but I I think it's up to the person and definitely hard to do alone. Like maybe it takes therapy and friends and support and community to like, recognize, like, when is it a situation where like, I'm not going to leave someone just because it's inconvenient, I'm not going to leave just because it's hard. I'm not going to leave just because I want this easy life and I'm not willing to sacrifice. Where does it stop being that and start being, I can no longer like be well, like, this behavior is so damaging to me, like, I can't be a well person. I've stepped over the threshold of now like, I'm having to set myself on fire to keep this person warm. Like when you get in a scenario where you being like, if I can't, this is like a personal boundary for me. I'm willing to love people through hard things. I'm willing to take like, a certain amount of pushback, and inconvenience and sacrifice and discomfort for somebody else. But I can only be in relationships, where what I'm doing to help you. does it damage me like we have to be well, at the same time, we have to be like, well, in complementary ways. Yeah. Not happy, not easygoing, not like, whatever. But like, if the only way to do something for your benefit, is to do something that damages me. Like, that's just an incompatible relationship.

  Heidi Smith 21:23

  Yeah. Well, I mean, I think like not to, like, minimize it or globalize it, but I mean, I think like, what you're talking about is kind of the crux of like, probably every person's decision going into a divorce, you know, I mean, it's like, I think everybody are ending a relationship.

  KC Davis 21:38

  It's like this point at which you're cutting off your mom or right, like, I

  Heidi Smith 21:42

  want to fight for this. And I believe, you know, that there's intrinsic value, and, you know, kind of taking myself on and, and even religious and spiritual reasons, right. Like, I believe that, like, God, you know, wants me to stay in this marriage and whatnot, but that like always, like, weighing you like, at what point? Like, is this no longer like something that's an option for me based on that I can compassionately you know, take myself out of and so man, I think, and like you said, there's not a way to set I mean, those are all so individual situations, that that's why I wish everybody in the world could have like an amazing therapist, you know, I mean, to help, like, on a weekly basis, walk you through those boundaries, and those even timelines, right? Like, hey, I'm willing to stick, I'm willing to, like, you know, he says, he's gonna get in therapy, I'm willing to wait a year and like, see what happens. And, you know, and then that boundary setting, you know, which as I don't know, if you've talked about this on the podcast, but the idea that, like boundaries are about me and my behavior of like, you know, if you continue to punch holes in the wall, you know, like, I'm unwilling to, to live in a home with you. And if you continue to punch holes in the wall, like I'm unwilling to be married to you, or, you know, whatever that's going to look like and setting some timelines and personal boundaries around that, like, it's so individual. And it's so important to have, I think, you know, like when possible professional helping guide you through that.

  KC Davis 23:07

  And even if you can't professional help, I think like having a good community of friends, like I genuinely have, like, enough friends that I could like, cue them in, and like, they can help me see that line of like, okay, this is the line where like, this is now at a detriment to yourself. The other thing I think is interesting is like, if there are children involved, sometimes it's easier to see that line where it's like, alright, this family members, like pretty problematic, but like a relationship with their family member, and my children having a relationship with their family member is like, still a greater good than, like cutting them off, or whatever. But we're always like keeping our ear to the ground for like, if this comes to a point where like, my children are being damaged. Because of this behavior, like that's when like, that's going to change. And sometimes it's almost more clear to see for our kids, but it's the same logic for ourselves. It's like, all sacrifice, I will be just uncomfortable, I will go to the ends of the earth for you, like, I'll go to hell for you, but I won't stay there. Right, I will go to hell for you. But only if we can walk out the back door together. And who knows how long that takes and how long you give someone for that to take. But it's never about whether they are worth it, everyone is worth it. It's about like, how long can you stay in hell before you burn up yourself? And then you're not taking anybody out with you?

  Heidi Smith 24:25

  Yeah, and it's so interesting, you know, just to watch so many people I've interacted with over the years and where their tolerance levels are so different. You know, I mean, I have you know, a handful of friends who have a very low tolerance level for like discomfort, you know, where it's like, Hey, man, like I'm not really enjoying this marriage, right and like, I'm gonna move on you know, like this just I'm not having fun. I don't really like this. I don't like how you act and like, you know, I'm gonna go ahead and move on versus people who really will just go you know, it's like, they'll become you know, basically willing hostages, you know, and me Marriage and they're tall. So, you know, it's an interesting study almost just to kind of watch different people where there's some people who man, it's like, I think you could have stuck it out for like a minute more. versus, you know, other people where you're like, Dude, what are you doing? You know, and, I mean, as someone who's married, and I mean, I know you and me, have bounced off, you know, all kinds of issues we've had in our own marriages. You know, marriage is not for the faint hearted. I mean, it's hard. And I think also, like, philosophically, kind of in just your philosophy of life, and maybe your personal spiritual beliefs. It's like, I think that also matters too of like, what really are we doing with marriage? I mean, what relationships and I guess I'm focusing on marriage, right? This minute is like, what is the point? You know what I mean? Am I in this just to be happy and be comfortable? Do I believe there's like a greater calling for this like, that this is supposed to be kind of an iron sharpens iron and like, through the discomfort of this and through, like, how our personalities are so opposite. And we do things differently that, like, I'm getting to grow myself up in ways that I never could have done if I hadn't had this person in my life. Do I believe there's a higher spiritual calling to this relationship? And all of that, it's like, I think that's why it's impossible to set some kind of like, five step, you know, guide principles, you know, to like,

  KC Davis 26:20

  yeah, because and then when am I telling myself all of those things, to keep myself in a relationship that I absolutely should be exiting? Because I'm telling myself a good person would stay? Yeah, yeah. So I wanted to sort of land the plane here. But I want I didn't want to log off before discussing what I think is probably the most powerful insidious trump card that I think is the most difficult to deal with, which is the trump card of if you do X, or if you don't do x, I will kill myself. Oh, gosh, I think that's probably like the ultimate trump card. And I like bizarrely, how many people I know that have had to deal with that. Right? I'm just curious, like, can you give us any, like parting thoughts? I mean, I know we could do like a whole episode on this. But like, I just didn't want to leave without talking about that trump card.

  Heidi Smith 27:13

  I don't have like a beautifully curated response. But I definitely have some thoughts. I mean, I do think that people who do that somebody who would say that to somebody that they love in a relationship have are very ill, in some way, shape, or form, whether it's a personality pathology, or whether it's a true kind of clinical mental illness. I think it's incredibly unfair. But also like, again, with that wholesale, I'm gonna you know, instead of using the word manipulative, I think it's indicative of somebody who's really unwell. And so, you know, it's so much deeper than just like, the actual statement, I guess, you know, and so, you know, clinically to it's like, evaluating like, is this something that is being said, out of like, desperation and fear? Or is there like a real suicidal ideation? And this person needs to be like, immediately rushed to, you know, the psych ward? Or is it anger and threat, right? Is this just, you know, like you said, a trump card of something that, you know, is gonna, you know, Ben, somebody's willed towards mine. But it's, wow, I mean, there's just a lot of boundary setting and education that would need to happen for the individual who is being told that,

  KC Davis 28:31

  yeah, the most powerful thing I think I've ever seen with boundaries was, you know, we have a friend who called his mom from the psych ward, and said, If you don't come get me out of here, I'm gonna kill myself. Like the moment they discharged me, I'm gonna kill myself. And she said to him, and he doesn't mind me telling this story, because he told it on a national documentary, but she said, Caleb, I love you. I have always loved you. And I will always love you that if you decide to do that, that will be your decision and not mine click, and because she recognized, like, I'm in a place where like, if I go get him out of the psych ward, like, I'm basically signing his death certificate anyways. And I mean, that's a unique situation. But that's always been like, the most powerful example of boundaries was her being able to truly believe in her heart, like, I cannot control what you are going to do. But you know, that if you do do that, like that will be on you. Oh, and the other thing she said Is she said, if you do that, I will be sad for the rest of my life. I will never get over it. But that will be your decision and not mine.

  Heidi Smith 29:35

  And I've worked with so many different scenarios, right? Like, I mean, I work with chronic substance abuse and in a lot of scenarios like your like this one, you know, where somebody has struggled for years and years and years and yeah, and I mean, being able to separate and like know where you end and they begin and say, like, you know, kind of stay on your side of the line, this metaphorical line. We can talk about that on another podcast. But stay on your side of the line and say like that, I hope you don't do that. But if you're telling me that to get me, you know, to do A, B, C, or D, like, you know, I'm still unwilling to give you money or I'm still unwilling to, you know, stay in the home with you, or whatever it is, I think being able to hold on to yourself, in that sense, I mean, because that's, this is such a complex topic again, because at the end of the day, like, it's really about, like, the person who's being told a statement, like, if you don't do this, I'm going to kill myself, like the order of the day really is for the other individual to be able to hold on to themselves. And like, that's a complex, you know, kind of idea of like, how do I hold on to myself in the presence of somebody who's sick of somebody who is using trump cards of somebody who is, you know, manipulating maybe in the traditional sense, how do I hold on to myself?

  KC Davis 30:54

  Well, we'll get into that in another podcast, but I just wanted to thank you, and I hope you come back soon. Thank you.