25: Low Energy Self Care with Amanda Dodson

We are focusing on one particular aspect of self-care today with therapist and professional organizer Amanda Dodson of Nesting Your Life. I love learning more about how these two roles intersect in helping people with real-life problems. Join us to learn more from Amanda!

Show Highlights:

• Why Amanda became interested in “low-energy care of self”

• Why it is difficult to accept that you aren’t physically, mentally, and emotionally capable of doing the things you want to do

• How Amanda explains the “Spoon Theory” of energy

• An explanation of diminished energy and the blame and frustration that come with it

• Why resources for self-care should think outside the box regarding the unseen rules we live by

• Why budgeting your energy differently requires a sort of “mourning” the death of your able-bodied self as life changes occur

• How societal messages about dealing with low-energy cater to the well people

• Why neurodivergent people tend to have off-balance eating habits

• How Amanda helps her clients aim for regular eating routines to be in touch with their hunger and fullness cues

• Where to start if your home is not functional (Just take the first step!)

• How sensory issues factor into low-energy self-care—and how to address them

• Why motivation pairing can be a real game-changer in making undesirable tasks more tolerable

• Why Amanda sees it as an important part of her work to help men become more involved in the care of their homes

Resources:

Connect with Amanda Dodson: TikTok and Website

Connect with KC: TikTok, Instagram, and Website

Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning

• Transcript

  KC Davis 0:04

  Hello, you sentient ball of stardust, this is Struggle Care, the podcast about self care by a host that hates the term self care. And we're gonna get into that today. I have a guest today named Amanda Dodson. She is a therapist and a professional organizer. And you know me, I love that combination. Hi, Amanda. Hi, KC.

  Amanda Dodson 0:22

  Thanks for having me.

  KC Davis 0:23

  Absolutely. So Amanda, the reason I wanted to have you on is because I love your take on things as a person who basically talks about low energy, care of self. So we you sort of orient our readers as to why that sort of became a place for you and what your background is.

  Amanda Dodson 0:45

  Yeah, so I started my career as a community social worker. So I did in home therapy for families who had cases open with Child Protective Services, basically. And a lot of those cases were for what they called condition of the home. So our job would be to go in. And I mean, purportedly, our job was to help them get the house cleaned up. But really, what it was, was figuring out what had gotten in the way of them being able to care for their home, and sometimes care for their children and themselves. And often it was physical disability, it was a significant mental illness, or simply not having been raised with that set of skills and getting to adulthood and just not being sure quite what to do. And so I really found I had a passion for just really getting in there and kind of getting my hands dirty to get homes the way people wanted them to be a with the sort of like mental health spin on it. And I moved into like different areas of practice after that. But then during COVID, I myself developed a chronic illness that really impacted my ability to do a live the light cleaning and organizing that I loved loved to do. So it was necessary for me to really adjust my habits and my expectations about how to keep up with caring for myself, caring for the people I take care of, also, because I am also a caretaker for other people who are chronically ill, and keeping up with just like the daily work of renting a home, which is a lot when you've got other stuff going on.

  KC Davis 2:29

  So what would you say was the hardest like shift mentally to make when you found yourself with a smaller capacity of energy than you were used to?

  Amanda Dodson 2:42

  I think the hardest thing to accept for me was just that it was simply not possible for me to do it all in the way that I was used to being able to do like in the past, and lots of people who have like become disabled know this journey. But in the past, you're used to having a pretty much infinite supply of energy, even if it is hard to reach sometimes. And it really took me a while to accept like, I just cannot do that anymore. And so I can't count on being able to like wake up on a Saturday morning and clean my whole house for the day. For the week, I have to be planful about how I ration my energy. And even in things like taking care of myself, getting myself showered, hair washed, dressed every single day. Like that became something I had to spend my energy on rather than something that was just a given that I would be able to do.

  KC Davis 3:36

  Interesting. You know, I'm sure a lot of our listeners are familiar with spoon theory, but probably not everybody is, which is this idea that well, I'll let you explain it. Go ahead.

  Amanda Dodson 3:49

  Well, yeah, spin theory. So the idea is that when you're able bodied, April minded, you have a pretty much endless supply of these little spoonfuls of energy. Like if you imagine your physical and mental energy as a big jar, you can just like spoon out of it, and the spoons never stopped coming. But when you have depression, or you have chronic pain or something interfering, your spoons are finite. And sometimes they're extremely finite, like you only have a couple a day. So you have to be really careful about how you spoon out your energy.

  KC Davis 4:25

  One is a really helpful metaphor for understanding like, just the idea of having a limited capacity, which I find is applicable to most people. So I don't have a chronic illness. But what I found was when I went from having one kid to having two kids, and then going through the pandemic, and then like coming under some stress, all of a sudden, I was experiencing this thing where I would wake up and I would have these things I needed to get done that day. And then like suddenly at 3pm I would just hit a wall and it was like I could feel my body and my mind being like, powering down? Yes. And I'd be like, oh my, and I could not get myself to do anything else. I'd have brain fog, I'd have fatigue. And it was really frustrating. And especially, you know, then it's but it's like, Oh God, I have all these other things, including like getting my kids into bed and feeding myself and like this thing that has to happen tomorrow. And so I think like, whether it is chronic illness, or you mentioned mental illness, or just burnout or stress, or I know a lot of parents, or maybe you got a new dog, I mean, literally, whatever it is, we go through this thing where we're going, Oh, my God, why don't I have the limitless energy that I had before? And I think that a lot of people are, I mean, even able bodied people have to make choices, like maybe they don't have the energy for everything. But typically, they have enough energy to cover all of the necessities, and they're really only making cuts when it comes to the extra. So it's like, I'm too tired to go to the beach and do a three mile run today. So I guess I'll have to pick one. Right? But it's like very different when that energy runs out. At okay. I guess I have to decide whether I'm going to shower today or I'm going to clean my house.

  Amanda Dodson 6:12

  Yes, yes. Or whether I'm going to shower or be able to prepare myself at dinner. Right, like, but isn't it interesting what I heard you say and I totally identify with this, like when you hit that wall and kind of ran out of spoons. Our emotional reaction is to feel frustrated and angry. And sometimes an often like angry at ourselves. Like, why am I so tired right now? Like, Oh, what am I doing wrong? Did I not drink enough water? Did I not get enough sleep? Like, why do I feel this way? It must be something that I've done. And I just have found that to be so counterproductive, even though it's a regular response. Because it only tires us out more to be angry and frustrated with ourselves for feeling tired.

  KC Davis 6:59

  Yeah, it was a huge deal for me to be like, okay, especially in my case, I didn't know why I was running out of energy. I didn't know if it was the trauma from the pandemic, if I had something wrong with my hormones, if I was sick if I was depressed, like what it was. And I was kind of frustrated that my doctors kept being like, I mean, you might just be traumatized. So it's like, no, it must be something fixable. But like getting to the point where I hit that wall, and instead of launching into those questions, or those criticisms, just being like, Okay, this is where it ends for me today. Like, it's, I think, a hard transition to be okay with those stopping points and kind of a non judgmental awareness.

  Amanda Dodson 7:37

  Totally. And like radical acceptance is the name of the game, because it's natural for us to go into that like questions spiral of why we're tired, or why we're out of juice, but like, that only just creates more suffering and more fatigue. And it's a lot more effective, I've found to just be like, Well, that's it for today. And that's all Amanda has to spend. So we got to redirect him to something else.

  KC Davis 8:06

  Well, what I love about your channel on tick tock, and about the kind of services that you offer is that coming into it from a place of knowing what it's like to have to ration energy, and even mental and physical energy, kind of allows you to think outside the box, right. And I think that a lot of resources and services out there about home care about self care, they kind of come from an able bodied perspective, right. So it's more about, you know, putting all of the different glass jars into the pantry or having your rainbow colored bookcase and meal, prepping big huge meals that you know, you're gonna have the time and energy to plan on Sundays. And those sorts of things. And I have an example of one that I love that I've always loved, I'm gonna play,

  Unknown Speaker 8:54

  pay you if you're too hungry and dysregulated to figure out what you want to eat. So you just eat nothing, eat a little snack first, wait for a minute, then figure out what you want to make yourself for a meal snack before a meal is loud, do it.

  KC Davis 9:07

  I love this. Because it's those types of little tips that are counterintuitive and a lot of ways. Like they're so simple when you hear them. And it reveals to us all of these like rules about caring for ourselves that we're like kind of following like who would have thought I felt like I wasn't allowed to eat a snack before deciding on a larger meal.

  Amanda Dodson 9:30

  Yes, but we carry those rules with us. You'd be shocked how many comments from people were like why did I never think that this was okay. And I think it's I've like worked in eating disorder recovery too professionally. So like the food thing has a special place in my heart. That yeah, I mean, I think we carry a lot of rules that come from just like gender expectations and role expectations about like how we're supposed to clean our home. Live in our home, eat In our home, and they are pretty aimed towards someone who's already doing quite well at all of those things. So the advice doesn't end up being that helpful.

  KC Davis 10:10

  So how many people do you work with on like a coaching basis that come to you because they've tried some other like self care organization method? And it was a method made for someone who is firing on all able bodied, able minded, totally great support system cylinders.

  Amanda Dodson 10:31

  I mean, like all of them, all of them every single one. Yeah, I was just talking to one of my coaching clients the other day, and they were saying, like, yeah, I looked up methods for like a system for cleaning my house. And it was like, day two, remove everything from your cabinets and wipe them out. Day three, clean all the baseboards, and they were like, This is intermediate, I need beginner. I'm nowhere near keeping up this level of cleanliness, I need something so much more simple. And really what people need is like the kind of home care training that some of us receive as kids on how to keep up with homes. But a lot of people just don't for whatever reason.

  KC Davis 11:13

  So I want to in just a minute, I want to get into something that you said, where you talked about how a lot of the guilt or shame we feel or the messages about like what rules we're allowed to break come from these different cultural expectations. I want to get into that, but I'm going to pause for a second, and then we will be right back. Okay, we are back with Amanda Dotson, who is a counselor and a professional organizer, she runs her company called nesting your life. Nice, you could tell I was worried that I'd forgotten it. So we're talking about how when you are when you go through something and you find yourself with a much more limited capacity than you previously had? And sort of almost would you say there's almost like a like phases of grief that you go through of like coming to terms with being able to be non judgmental about the fact that you have to now budget things differently?

  Amanda Dodson 12:06

  Yes, totally. And I really experienced this myself, and I've seen other people go through it, where it's almost like you have to mourn the death of you're able bodied itself that like they might not be coming back, you're gonna have a different kind of life now. And I think that comes with the whole process of accepting like a chronic problem or a chronic disability, or even just like a chronic life challenge, like from now on, you're going to have to be taken care of your ill parent, or from now on, your child has a special need that you never expected to parent. But now you got it, right. Like we all have these things come up in our lives that are unexpected that we never planned for.

  KC Davis 12:51

  It's almost like chronic lack of support also is yes, a huge one, right? Like there are people out there that didn't plan to be single parents. Exactly. They didn't plan for their job to transfer them away from their family, they didn't plan to suddenly lose their job and now have to spend so much more time making the amount of support that they used to have. And now they're exhausted and limited and time and energy.

  Amanda Dodson 13:17

  Yes. And all the narratives we have for how to deal with that are very, I mean, you're from Texas, like I am. So we were steeped in like just sort of pull yourself up by your bootstraps, like just, you know, get it together, and then everything will be okay. And you'll be able to handle all of it. And I think people feel quite full of despair. When that doesn't work. Because the opposite is true. Like in those times of your life, when you're accepting that you have to ration your energy. That's when you need the most support. And that's when you need to be bringing in more people that you didn't expect to have to help you out. But now they

  KC Davis 13:53

  do. We were sort of talking briefly about the idea that most like home and self care advice is sort of almost geared towards people that have able bodied and support systems. I'm curious your thoughts on why that is? Because if you think about it, like people who need quote, unquote, self help advice are people that need help, right. And so And yet, most of the sort of self help advice out there is really only geared towards a specific, like demographic of people that don't actually need too much help.

  Amanda Dodson 14:28

  Yes. And I think it's because those are the people that can afford to buy the books. Those are the people that have the disposable income for those sorts of things. And that's why I mean, I love your book, and I love writing for the target audience of people that it's like, maybe you're not going to be able to read this whole book, maybe you're just going to be able to skim it maybe you're going to be able to get some snippets from the internet right like I don't know why self help advice is so written towards, basically well P But who just want to like be a little bit better? But I think it's just because people like they forget they exist until they're one of them or they're taking care of one of them.

  KC Davis 15:09

  Yeah, the world doesn't really like to pretend like disabled people exist and their full rights as autonomous human beings that are experiencing life still. Yes. And I mean, I think you brought up a great point, which is that the majority of self help products and advice is living in a capitalistic market where they want people to purchase that product. And so you need to both promise to fix somebody's all their problems. And you need to be aiming and marketing in a way that people that have expendable income want to be marketed to. Right, they want to believe that all they have to do is just believe in themselves and manifest and then, you know, this will all be fit, like, they'll be better, they'll suddenly have more energy, they'll get everything done, everything will look nice. That's unfortunate, but it's so true. And I but I think it's helpful to know that when we're hearing messages, like motivational speakers, and people selling books and things like that, at the end of the day, they're trying to get people to purchase from them. And you have to market in that way.

  Amanda Dodson 16:16

  Yeah, like it's a product. And yeah, and but the products are sometimes packaged. So selectively, like the idea that if you could just do this one thing, follow this one cleaning system, or make this one little thinking change in your life, and then like, everything would be great, and nothing would be difficult or confusing ever again, like what a dangerously seductive idea. But that's not actually how life works. It's really more complex than that. And you can do all the right things and still have something bad happen to have everything thrown off the rails.

  KC Davis 16:53

  So when you work with someone who is trying to let's say, create a more functional home or work, some self care, I love how many tips you have about eating? Because if you go and look for like tips on eating well, it's mostly like diet advice. Oh, it is. Yeah, yeah. But my experience is like, there's a lot of people who are just like, No, how do I eat like anything? Yeah,

  Amanda Dodson 17:14

  it's one of the first questions that I asked people, even when they come to me for just like cleaning organization, like, what's your eating routine, like, because I find especially neurodivergent people, I think, because just their internal clocks run a little bit differently. Like, they tend to eat nothing, all morning, some of the afternoon until like three o'clock, they realize they're like starving. And that's when their brain tells them you're hungry. But by that time, they've lost all executive functioning skills to be able to prepare a meal. And usually all, they've lost all connection with their like hunger fullness cues. So it's just sort of like I need to get something in my body right now. And then the meal doesn't end up even being that enjoyable, because it's eaten sort of frantically, and then they don't get hungry again until like, late, late at night, when ideally, it would be time to like, wind down a little bit and start thinking about going to sleep. And if you can run your life on that schedule. Am I calling you out right now? Oh, my God,

  KC Davis 18:16

  describing my exact day, like, oh, my gosh, I feel exposed.

  Amanda Dodson 18:24

  And that's the reaction that people typically have is like, how did you know?

  KC Davis 18:29

  I mean, the more I talk to people, the more I'm convinced I've never had a unique experience. Okay, so if I come to let's, let's go with that, like, let's say I come to you, and I'm like, Hey, and you describe that and I go, Oh my God, that's me. And I'm like, What do I want to organize my house? Why is it though, that you ask that first, and we're gonna start there.

  Amanda Dodson 18:46

  Because they're never going to have the executive functioning to organize their house if they're starving.

  KC Davis 18:51

  So what are some things that you would suggest to me if I were to say like, yes, that's my eating pattern. And I'm going offline at 3pm. And I feel this paralysis, and I'm panic eating, but I don't know what to make myself like, where do we start with some tips for that?

  Amanda Dodson 19:05

  Well, I mean, usually I tried to target lunch, because breakfast is really hard for people. So I'll have people set an alarm for lunch. And we'll make them a list of things to like, ideally, that day, when I meet with them, go to the store and buy things that they know they like that are really quick. They can just grab out of the fridge for a lunch, then we start to target breakfast. And it's like, when you get up in the morning. A lot of people don't feel like eating but it's like what's the least, like, horrifying thing you can think of nourishing yourself within the morning. Can you get through a like Luna bar, right? Could you tolerate like a piece of toast with some peanut butter on it or something like that, right. And most people find once they start eating more regularly, they're more in touch with their hunger fullness cues. And so they remember to eat more frequently because they're starting to notice when they're actually hungry. So you out alarms. Having snacks in every room of the house is sometimes something that's worked for some people, like just having them visible. That

  KC Davis 20:07

  has been huge for me. I started keeping peanut butter crackers on my third floor. So my office is on the third floor of our house. And I found myself like, even when I was recognizing I was hungry, not wanting to go down to the first floor. Yeah. And I spent several days being like, but you have to Casey make yourself you have to it's important before I was like, or just put some peanut butter crackers on the third floor like maybe this is a battle for another day.

  Amanda Dodson 20:28

  Yes, yes. Because way better peanut butter crackers than like, nothing and internal turmoil. Right? Yeah.

  KC Davis 20:37

  And so do clients push back on you when you say get something you can just grab because that probably means things that are prepackaged things that are wrapped in plastic. Do you ever have people say like, Oh, God, no, the environment like I can't do it. Yeah,

  Amanda Dodson 20:51

  I do. I do. I get the environment and I get the the food rolls around. Like that's processed food. And I should be eating something with a vegetable. And I'm like, You're not eating anything baby like. Like, come on. Don't be a hero.

  KC Davis 21:10

  I love the one you did where you were like acting on a skit and you said, Oh, I've really got to get all this homework done. But you know, I'm hungry. And I'm thirsty. And I'm starving. But I've got to get this homework done. And you were like, Okay, well, why do you need to get the homework done? They're like, so I can get a good job. And why do you need a good job so that I can live a fulfilling life? Okay, like, is this fulfilling? Are you feeling fulfilled? And then you're like, No, I'm not hungry, though. Okay, you have to eat, if you want to do these other things like not eating is not alignment with your long term goals.

  Amanda Dodson 21:37

  It's not.

  KC Davis 21:40

  I love that. Okay, so that's pretty good. So let's say that I get the eating down, I'm starting to eat regular meals. And I've learned to maybe eat a snack before I make a meal, get some prepackaged things. If I'm feeling like my house isn't functional, where's a place that you'd like to start with people, if especially if they're going, the amount of things that needs to be done, for my home to be functional. So because a lot of my wording is about just focus on function, just focus on function, like don't worry about it being perfect focus on function. And that's really helpful for a huge demographic that listens to me and listens to my content sets them free. But a lot of times what happens is people going okay, but like my capacity is such that, like, I don't even have the energy to get it functional. Where do I go from there?

  Amanda Dodson 22:30

  Yeah, yeah. So the first question I usually ask at that point is, what is the most distressing area of your home that's always in your way? It's always causing a problem for you, when you look at it, you're filled with despair, like, what is that? For every person? It's different sometimes of like, Oh, my bathroom or for a lot of people, it's the sink with the dishes. And so then we start to, but then they'll say, but it's so overwhelming. I can't even think of where to start. So we'll say, Okay, what would be the very, very first step to doing the dishes? And they'll start to go like, well, you know, they'll go like six steps in and I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, back it up. You just open, maybe open the dishwasher and see if there's clean dishes in there. Maybe we just empty the sink so we can work in it right. And like, I find that once people get that first step going. It's like it breaks the avoidance seal that their brain has imposed, and they can actually engage in the task without feeling overwhelmed.

  KC Davis 23:31

  I found that I have to put on an apron. Oh, that's like my game changer. If I put on an apron and put on music, then I'm like, okay, maybe I can open the dishwasher.

  Amanda Dodson 23:41

  Now I am cleaning person. Yes. Yeah, yeah, totally. And like, a lot of people through talking with them, we find that they have some sort of like sensory aversion to the task that that is causing a problem with them, we need to put an accommodation in place to help it be less distressing. So sometimes we problem solve that. And sometimes they just need the permission to start small. So I'll ask them, like, how long do you think you could clean your house for today? And they'll say, like, an hour, and so I'll say like, okay, set a timer for seven minutes, and just clean.

  KC Davis 24:19

  Thank you for saying that. I was really hoping that you were gonna say that, because the amount of times that I have gone to, like a professional, whether it's a dietician, or a therapist, or whatever, and been like, I mean, I think I could do like, you know, 30 minutes a day, and they'd be like, excellent. We're going to start with three. Yes. Like, I always overestimate what I think I can commit to and then I'm too overwhelmed to do it. So I'm so glad to hear that. That's what you do with people. Yes, but it's so true. Because we need the experience of being successful to feel motivated to do it again, like I can't be like shooting for 30 minutes, multiple days and not making it and like want to keep doing that.

  Amanda Dodson 24:56

  Totally, totally. Yeah. And that trick where Extra, a lot of things like, for me, I like my cognitive energy, like it hits a wall at some point in the day, and I just don't have any more like focus anymore. So one way I ration that if I'd need to, like write an article get work done, I'll be like, Okay, I can't say sit down and write an article. But I can say, sit down, and I'm gonna set a timer for three minutes. And all right, during those three minutes, and like, what I find, and what a lot of people find is, like, just once they do that three minutes, they're like, Wow, I did it success. And usually, they want to keep going.

  KC Davis 25:35

  I love that. Okay, we're gonna take a quick break here. And when we come back, I want to ask you more about the sensory issues. Okay, we're back. And I want to dive into this idea of people having sensory barriers, because I feel like, you know, when I am struggling to get something done in my home or take care of myself, it's often like, the first thought is like, Oh, I'm such a piece of junk, like, I just have to try harder, I have to do that. And when we give people permission to believe that their struggle with a care task is morally neutral, but like, it doesn't mean anything about them, and that their barriers are legitimate. I have found that that cracks open all of this problem solving, like I can't tell you the amount of people who when I talk about, like brushing teeth, and I'll say like, some people don't like they're avoiding brushing their teeth. And and I asked like, why, and they're like, Well, what do you mean? I'm like, Well, why, but like, think about like, really think about, like what it is that and people really haven't given themselves permission to think about what they hate about it so much, because they think that their avoidance of it is such a character failing. So tell me a little bit about how you walk through sensory issues. And like, what does that mean? What does that entail? What are some of the most common ones you've seen?

  Amanda Dodson 26:50

  Yeah, well, I mean, teeth, brushing is a huge one. Because for some people, the toothbrush and the taste of the toothpaste is a sensory nightmare. I've worked in like therapeutic schools with kids that are on the autism spectrum. And I one school that I worked at in Boston, they had a whole OT department, just like they had a therapy department, they had an entire gym and a department of OTs and I'm like I love OT, like, I should have gotten the school to be an OT I'm into. But I was so inspired by all the strategies that they had. And I started to realize how many sensory issues I had in my own life that I had just sort of like shoved down in the little ball. Because they seemed weird, or like, as my parents would say, like, You're a funny girl. Like, just the nicest way to say like, That's really strange. But I like for myself, I started noticing like, I was avoiding washing my Tupperware. At times, I would even just throw it away because old food gave me like a full body just ignatia reaction, like I couldn't think about touching it, I couldn't think about even looking at it, smelling it. And so actually at work, a dietitian saw me throw it away. And she was like, Okay, I'm gonna work with you. Even though you're my coworker, she was like, you're going to open it, put it in the sink, run hot water in it and soap so that you can't see all the food right away. And we're just gonna get like all the bad stuff down the drain. And you're gonna put gloves on, right. And so like giving myself permission to think about this not as just like a funny quirk that I had, but as like a genuine functional issue was really illuminating. And so, I mean, the most common ones I hear are like touching old wet food. And people often need like gloves, a drop of like something that smells good under the nose to be able to smell something different. Another one people have is like, they just hate the feeling of wet hands. So gloves also work with that, but also aprons, like sweatbands that go on their wrist, the water can't run down the wrist. That helps with face washing, too, because a lot of people avoid washing their faces because of the drips. A lot of people have and I have this one. Like if there's like crunchy things underfoot, when I'm walking around the house barefoot, It like makes me want to implode. And so I have lots of nice socks. And I asked and asked my friends and family and eventually they gifted me with one of those little robot vacuums which is massively improved my quality of life because I'm not just like inundated with horrible sensory input all the time. So

  KC Davis 29:33

  I'm such an apron girl. Like I found that the point of like, I knew that the point of an apron was like to keep things off of your like clothes. But I realized that one of the reasons why I would avoid doing dishes is because when water gets on the sink and I lean up against it, I have like a real thing with wet clothes in any capacity. And so I was like, oh, that's why people wear aprons. To me apron was such a 1950s thing. Yeah. So when I recognize like the functionality of not only does it like get me in the headspace, but like, when I have gloves on when I have an apron on, when I have music on, like, when I'm addressing my sensory environment, it's amazing to me how much of a task feels intolerable because of the sensory components. And when I address that, all of a sudden, the motivational blocks are a little bit less, because ill Oh, it's not as intolerable. And then if you just combine that with a few things, like you said, with like, let me just set a timer for seven minutes. And we can kind of get this like wraparound holistic approach to it. Yes. And it's huge. It's a huge deal.

  Amanda Dodson 30:44

  Oh, totally. And the like, motivation, pairing of like music, or podcasts or audio book with the chore is a real game changer for a lot of people. Also, because a lot of people, especially with dishes, the sound of like the dishes, knocking together really, really bothers them. So yeah, I mean, I think it's all about like, figuring out your special formula for like, what makes a chore tolerable, because once it's tolerable, it's, most people find they're even, like, happy to be able to do it. And

  KC Davis 31:16

  it's such a message of compassion to talk about that with people, because I think a lot of us got this message that if you don't like something, if it's uncomfortable, if you're feeling a sense of like avoidance, or even revulsion at doing something, that the only solution to that is just knock it off. Quit being so sensitive, pick yourself up by the bootstraps, big girls do hard things. And I believe that there is a time and place for believing, hey, this is uncomfortable, but I have to make myself do it anyways. But it's not dishes, right? Like it's okay to make a care task that you struggle with. A little bit easier, right with some accommodations, like, the things in my life that I've had to actually tell myself, I know it's uncomfortable, but you have to just do it. They're almost always emotional thing. Right? Like, I need to say this hard thing to a friend. I need to, you know, be honest with someone, I need to tell my husband something that's embarrassing. I need to stand up for myself like things where it's like, this is going to be hard. But I just have to make myself do it. Because I have to be courageous. Like that, to me is the place for Alright, suck it up, do it. Not? Yeah, you know, laundry is miserable. Because like, it's okay, like, it's morally neutral to build some accommodations around laundry, so you don't hate it so much. Exactly.

  Amanda Dodson 32:43

  And like, I mean, I don't mean to get so existential about these things. But like dishes, laundry, cooking, these things are the work of living, like, we spend so much of our lives doing these things. And I hate for people to feel like it's just like something some burdensome tasks that they have to do. Because and like, also, you know, caring for self and hygiene, right? Like, I think people feel really filled with like, emptiness when they think I have to spend my life doing all of these things that are such a burden. And I really hate because we have to do them every day. And if you are burdened by these tasks every day, I mean, how does that make you feel about your life and life in general. And so if we can find a way to make these tasks, certainly tolerable, but rewarding and pleasant, and like a feeling of success and investment, and just the life you're living, I do think that it just makes life a lot more meaningful.

  KC Davis 33:45

  Well, and it makes me think, like, for the majority of history, at least in the US, with our current country, the majority of domestic care tasks have been left to women. And so I think that there's like some real misogyny behind this idea that, you know, it's silly, or it's superficial to spend time making care tasks more enjoyable or easier, that you should just suck it up and do it like just be an adult, everyone has to do these things. And I always say like, and sometimes you will say that to me, where I'll talk about a hack that I use, and they'll say it would have taken you two seconds longer to just put your dish in the dishwasher. Right? And it always makes me think about how, like there are people that are paid like six figure salaries, to find ways to shave two seconds off of production times and warehouses. Like you don't think Amazon's paying people like millions of dollars to shave seconds here seconds there. I mean, we know they don't necessarily care about like worker experience, but when you know what I mean? Like making things more efficient, more doable, more productive. It's like our culture says it's okay to spend a lot of time and energy figuring out how to make business more productive, more efficient. But if you want to take that same type of creativity and dedication to your home, to your self care to your home care, figuring out how to create a home that serves you, all of a sudden, it's why would you do that? It's not that deep. Yeah. Yeah. When, like you said, like, good bit of living is these care tasks. So it is that deep,

  Amanda Dodson 35:24

  it is that deep, but I think you're right, it's our own internalized misogyny and, and society's misogyny, that makes us see these things as frivolous. And, you know, even like, for a lot of history, white women were able to, like, outsource these tasks to black indigenous and women of color. So seeing and I even like experienced this sometimes as someone who internally as someone who's like, I went and like, did all the loans to get this advanced degree and like, worked really hard to get this therapy license. And I've found myself like cleaning people's houses. And sometimes I feel a twinge of like, It's uncomfortable to tell people that I'm cleaning instead of practicing therapy, because cleaning is like this not as good, like occupation, when in reality, like, a lot of times I'm making people's day better in the same way that I am as a therapist, when I go and just clean up their houses for them. I think those forces are really sneaky. Plus, you know, like, we were talking about the sensory issues people earlier and giving themselves permission. I know with a lot of men that I work with, and men in my life, who they had no permission to feel that they had an internal barrier to housework, either from executive functioning or never being taught. A lot of boys are never taught how to care for themselves or their homes, we just assume they'll figure it out, or someone else will do it for them. And I think that's at the point at which it's very seductive for men to kind of like float into the like, casual misogyny of like, Oh, my sister will just handle it, or my mom will or my wife will just handle it. And like, I see part of my work is like pulling them out of that to be like, No, let's figure out what's getting in the way of you actually doing these tasks so that you can also participate in the work of living in your home and not just be like, this is some silly thing that's just done for you. Like you live there. And so you you should be a part of it.

  KC Davis 37:31

  Well, I think it comes down at the end of the day to that every person deserves to function. And they deserve help with tasks, even if they seem simple, even if they seem like nobody else needs help with those tasks. Because also they do. Right like there's a reason why my platform got so big. There's a reason why people come to you and your continued to be able to sustain yourself with this line of work is because there are people that need help with how do I feed myself? How do I brush my teeth more regularly? How do I get a functional home that's a little more organized. And so I think what you do is really valuable work and I really appreciate you coming on today.

  Amanda Dodson 38:06

  Thank you. Thank you so much for thinking of me.

  KC Davis 38:09

  Of course can you tell everybody where they can find you if they want to follow you? You can

  Amanda Dodson 38:12

  find me on tick tock at nesting your life and you can find my website at nesting your life.com

  KC Davis 38:19

  Awesome. Thank you so much. Thank you