38: Interview with the White Woman Whisperer

Racism. You may think you know what it is and in what ways it exists in our society, but it is a deep and multi-faceted topic. We could spend hours trolling the depths of language, attitudes, behaviors, and nuances that are influenced by race. We are attempting to explore and learn more in today’s show. I’m joined by Rebecca Slue, also known as the White Woman Whisperer. You may know her from TikTok, which is where I found her. We connected when I took an anti-racism course and reached out to her for help, and I’ve already learned a lot from her. Join us for more from Rebecca’s perspective.

Show Highlights:

• An example of how KC got into a quandary over comments on social media and the fear of being labeled as a racist

• How amazing conversations are happening when we aren’t concerned about perfectionism in our words

• What we need to understand about white supremacy

• How Rebecca uses a caste system model of values to understand the behaviors that perpetuate white supremacy

• Why our understanding of anti-racism is a journey and not a destination

• Rebecca’s experience of racial identity as she grew up the child of Jewish and Jamaican parents

• How Rebecca’s experience played out when she entered corporate America

• How she became the White Woman Whisperer

• How racism created a holistic layer of chronic stress for Rebecca

• How Rebecca uses a  metaphor to explain white fragility, white privilege, and the pinata of white supremacy

Resources and Links:

Connect with Rebecca: Website and Podcast, Instagram, TikTok

Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes

• Transcript

  KC Davis 0:05

  Hello you sentient balls of Stardust, welcome to Struggle Care. It's the podcast about self care and mental health by a host that hates the term self care, and doesn't always have great mental health. I am here today with a friend of mine named Rebecca and you may know her as the White Woman Whisperer on Tik Tok. So hello, Rebecca.

  Rebecca 0:25

  Hello, KC. I'm glad you're here today. I'm glad I'm here, too. But we recorded an episode together that ended up being so long. Because you and I can't stop talking. Isn't that great?

  KC Davis 0:39

  problem to have? I'll take it. Yeah, I think so we'll do our best to be professional podcasters. Okay, so for the listeners, Rebecca and I met, I was actually taking a course an anti racism cohort. And there was like this section about black history. And at the end, it was like, reach out to a black person in your network and ask them, like, how were they taught black history? And so I sat there and I was like, okay, and I don't know why you came to mind first, but I was like, and I didn't really even know you that well. Also, that's a real humbling moment in your anti racism cohort where they're like a black person in your network, and you're like, oh, shit, I

  Rebecca 1:22

  gotta find, find. And I'm like, what black person in my network is not going to be offended by me being like, Hey, you're black. I was told to find the black mine.

  KC Davis 1:37

  And I remember being like, Okay, you and I had exchanged some messages. And you were making like, anti racism content. So I felt like, okay for white women to I mean, yeah, I felt like, okay, safe bet. Yeah. And I was in that phase, which I still am sometimes where I'm like, terrified of making a mistake. Yeah. I get that. It's fun when you bring your like perfectionism and to anti racism work. Oh, yeah, that's the killer. That will do it for you. But I was so happy to see the message from you. And I know that was so weird. But I mean, I was open, especially it was the beginning. I was so naive and innocent and excited. And you know, you were one of my first Mutual's where I was like, I think I may actually be doing something here. Like, it's got the right vibe. I like what she's doing. Like your content inspired a bit of my content in terms of moral neutrality, and not that perfectionism in terms of even being a black person. So it just made a lot of sense. I was like, Alright, let's see what this is going to be like. The questions were interesting, though. Well, and you quite literally had a huge role and a turning point for me like it was, gosh, it must have been like a year ago now. Like it was a while ago, it was a while. And I had a woman call me out because I had made a video where I had referenced having locks when I was like, 19. And I was kind of making a joke out of it. But the joke was just like, look at this thing. I did. Oh, my God, I was 19. And she left a message about like, hey, this doesn't sit right with me. You're like making light of it. But it's like kind of a big deal to some of us. But the problem was, is that I just like glanced at her profile. Well, so first, I was like, Okay, I hear you. And I took the video down. And then she started commenting, being like, Hey, you're not being accountable. You're not doing this, you're not doing that. And she was really passionate about it. And I mistakenly, because I just kind of glanced at her profile picture thought that she was a white woman. And so I came out like guns blazing, like, you know, how I would talk to some because sometimes that happens, like other white women want to like outwork me. Oh my gosh, yes. They try to outwork me so and I just don't have a lot of tolerance for it. I bet.

  Rebecca 3:54

  I bet I come out quick to especially when you see a lot of comments all the time. It happens it happens. Turns out, she identified as MCs. She was like, No, I'm talking about my culture, my own experience, like you have actually offended me. And anyways, details of this are not important. But basically, you know, I talked to her we sort of worked it out and I'm in an apology and but what started happening was that like, you know, on tick tock, the peanut gallery like everybody, oh, actually, I just learned that the peanut gallery is like a racist term as well. So that's not the best term to use. So did I. Okay, so lots of commenters. All the sudden I was getting flooded with comments that were like half of them were like, This is no big deal. You should not be making like, just let it go. And then half of the comments were like, yeah, no, you need to like do something about this. This was really horrible. And I was in that period of my anti racism journey where I was really into like, listen to black people, listen to black people, but the split was all black people. It was like half of the white people saying that my comment saying like, nor that girl is just making too big of a deal of it and then half of them

  mean, like knows is very, very serious. And so I was like, paralyzed. And I was like, What do I do? I don't know what to do. And I happened upon your content at that time. And I started like binge scrolling your content. And you had this one video where somebody was saying to you like, I'm so afraid of making a mistake. I'm so afraid of saying the wrong thing. And you had said to her, like, I mean, what's the worst that could happen? If you make a mistake, if you say the wrong thing. And she was like, well, like, I don't like when I'm trying to do the right thing. And people mistakenly think I've done something racist. And so like, now they think I've done the wrong thing, even though I've done the right thing, and she literally looks at the camera and you were like, you'll be fine.

  Right? Even if all of that is true, you will be fine. You will literally be okay. In the real use of literally, you are on this is the safest I can be as a black woman is on the internet. And for white women to say they're scared, especially afraid. This type of language of being disliked by a black person may be at worst case, you know, they don't like you. Okay, they yell things on the internet at you and, and the mistake your intentions, they will get over it and probably not even yell at you to be honest, when we make jokes, and you'll feel a little silly. And that's your moment. What do you do with that I've had some amazing comebacks, not comebacks isn't clap backs, or call outs, but people just go, oh, I messed up. And then they get so much respect from restraint. And just to you know, I remember when there was a big tick tock drama, and you reached out and told me that you had utilized some of my work to just not, and that you were so grateful that you had made the choice to not do something is amazing. And it's like, oh, all I want to see come out of this is like it can be easier than this, like what you guys are doing is daunting, because what perfect dialogue are you expecting to have, where you know exactly what's going to happen, what the other person is going to say, that's also a problem with that sentiment to me, you know, we're gonna be mad, or you know, what we're gonna do? You know, we deal with physical violence and generational fear. I'm not so concerned about being insulted or offended. These aren't words that we're focused on.

  Yeah, that was the part that really sort of, like shook me out of that moment was that and I get it, like social rejection, even perceived, like our nervous system that hits hard, it can feel sometimes like the same thing as physical danger, because that's how desperate we are, you know, that's how much worth at stake for us. But the reality is, is that if a white person mistakes, your intentions in real life, that can can and does lead to violence, right? You could be jogging through a neighborhood, and if a white man mistakes, your intentions, decides they don't like you, that leads to violence. And for me, if I do something, and a black person mistakes, my intentions, I'm gonna be fine. Maybe they don't like me, but like, Okay, I don't think that's

  a stretch, you know, we don't know you're on the internet, is it? We don't know, you. And I think some of that is, you know, check the self importance there. You know, black people are trying to live and survive and get through generational trauma. And we're finally able to speak our minds. Without that fear of physical harm happening the moment we speak. And that's why you see so many amazing conversations happening. If you're listening to Black Tech Talk, not because they haven't been had before, it's just that the voices have been silenced. So, you know, we throw things out there. We're not concerned about perfectionism in our conversation. And I am not concerned with perfectionism because I'm like, Who knows when they're going to shut this down and stop listening. I need to get this information out there. And if you think about the intentions of black people, when they speak, which never happens, you will find that it's actually not that hard to listen and move forward from there. But I feel like the intention conversation happens after an offence or wrongdoing has already been pointed out. Now we want to talk about intention, but what about my intention on making the video that you got upset about, you know, why did I do that? And no one I don't see that in those who get upset. You know, I see that obviously from those who are doing the work, but

  Well, in that moment, like I felt as though like I had spoken to her privately we had had a conversation about like, I bungled this how can I make this right? And so she and I had already had that conversation, and the leftover Panic was just my image, my PR like all of these people in the comment section, where I was wanting to prove myself I I was wanting to defend myself I was wanting to say like, no, here's how you're wrong, you think I am an A. And that's where like that tick tock, you may and I think even messaged you about that. So I was like, this just saved my life. Because I was able to take a beat, and just learn to tolerate that it felt bad that these people and I want to say theoretical, they're not here, but there are literal people, but they're also like, not people I know that like, affect my life in any way. So it's just like the idea that theoretically, a black person could think that I was racist. It was like causing me genuine panic. And I think the most eye opening thing in my journey of going through that cohort and of listening to creators, like you was realizing in any moment, like my clarifying question was like, okay, am I concerned about how to actually impact like black liberation for good? Or am I concerned about being liked and approved of by black people?

  Right, by every black person? Because you have you have it like you admittedly had black people on your side. And I want you to consider that a lot of those black people that were not happy with you, or an actual black people. So I know we talked about they are people, but I find a lot of they know how afraid white people are of messing up and having a black person not like them. So often, I will have people come into my comments and start a phrase with as a black woman, I don't agree with you. And got to tell you, that gives you a way right there. We don't walk into the room and announce our race and gender because it's there in front of you every single day. How we speak, is what tells you that but I often have digital blackface happening in my comments, to shut maybe other white people down who are coming to my aid or trying to explain though, throw in a I'm black at the end. Yeah, then you know, cannot capitalize the B and then make, you know, never the math doesn't math. But I know that it does silence people. So there's that too.

  Well, it's so true, because the woman who had made the original comment was a light skinned mixed woman. But like even she didn't feel the need to say I'm black. Right? And this bothered me, right? Which was where you know, right? Like, you do not qualify at all people, you'd think that she would feel like she had to qualify yourself. And she's like, No, I'm black. I'm mixed. And she identified as mixed. But she also talked about being black, which is why I'm using them interchangeably. But so that's just interesting to reflect back on that show. Like, I'm talking about myself.

  It's one of those funny things. I remember in the beginning, I said, You know what's funny, I realized that white women walk into the comment section announcing themselves all the time, it was just like a funny thing to me just like, hey, I'm pale and or I'll come in with, like, a funny description for why I'm a white woman. And this I'm neurodivergent. And this, you know, some qualifier. And that is a sort of like characteristic, I believe of white supremacy now that I can see it in bulk and realize that we never do that. I've never felt the need to start with why you should listen to me. But in whiteness, your category comes first. And it's always

  with our like, white as faces in the profile picture to like, I didn't need the descriptor, Sally.

  I know, for so many other reasons in the beginning of your sentence, you know, I know what you sound like, I know the talking points, I see the picture. I mean, what you're going to speak to is probably going to let me know you're not going to use a v you know African American Vernacular English. Oh, and the way we're gonna get into that the literal understanding of black languages is another thing we could work on in comment sections. But that's for later times.

  I have this like line and I've never actually said it to anybody, because I'm not sure how appropriate it is. But it's, I think it in my head, especially when like because I've seen someone say something that is racist, and maybe to them they wouldn't recognize it as racist. Like, they would recognize it as like, oh, maybe it's a microburst, like no, it's just all racism. And when they're called out, and someone uses a she her pronoun, they'll get really angry about like, I'm actually not she her, like, either they'll say I am a man or I don't use those pronouns, or my favorite is like, why would you assume I'm a woman? And you know what I say in my head, and you can tell me, like she just say someone I always want to be like, I mean, white woman is as white woman does exactly. Like, I don't care if you're actually a woman or a man or white or whatever. Like I'm just saying,

  because no one identifies as white once they're pointed out as white. And the other thing is, I'll just be talking to someone and say, Hey, you're wrong, and they'll say, Why do you assume I'm white? Okay, I didn't mind. You know, it's not even a thing, right? Like, no one's technically white. So the moment you get called out and you say, I'm not this, it's like, okay, well, you're white enough for me. Okay. You could be black and be white enough for me because the conversation is is about white supremacy and white supremacist behavior to me, not about people, individuals, or you know what you're about, I can't take the time and focus that much on individuals, I'll never get anywhere, I have to focus on behaviors, especially if I see them over and over and over again, I don't need to know much about you to address this talking point, that there's always this special,

  I want to talk a little bit about white supremacy. But I want let's take a pause real quick. And we'll be right back. Perfect. Okay, we're back. And when we talk about that term, white supremacy, I feel like I can like hear my white listeners like their little toes curl. Because a lot of us were really taught growing up to believe that white supremacy is believing consciously that black people are inferior to white people, that white people should sort of rule that it should be this like very Hitler asked, like white Aryan society, with our little pointy cloak hats and burning crosses. And it has been very eye opening to me to talk about white supremacy as something more than that. So do you have like a working definition that you use with white people about what it means when we talk about white supremacy?

  Hmm, I do not have a working definition. And I also don't have a cute analogy for it yet? Well, I guess I do, I will, in a basic sense, I like to formulate it around the behavior I'm trying to address. So white supremacy is foundational to the conversation we're trying to have. If you're interested in reading the book cast by Isabel Wilkerson, I suggest reading from black people that are alive today. One, and she is and it's to understand it as a system, a caste system so really don't even have to discuss race or racism, if you discuss it as a caste. It we saw a caste systems see them in India, and we see them in Nazi Germany, and here in America. And she reviews the three as systems that you can see, as a set of behaviors, laws that were put in place based on this specific caste system for us was white male property ownership. Based on those three things, we will now formulate the rules in order to dictate behaviors that will continue this value system. If that makes sense. I like to envision it as a pyramid. And the bottom is just like white supremacy. And then our laws and our institutions are created based off of that, so that we make sure our education system is based off of that our financial institution, our healthcare system, everything comes with the assumption that the white men that created it, that their characteristics, and what they saw as important is across the board.

  That's like the most powerful definition I've ever heard, honestly, which is impressive for starting out with I have no definition.

  This is usually how I just kind of we get there.

  I know. But no, you're right, because it's this idea that it's a value system. And that. And I think about that sometimes when people talk about the Constitution, when they'll like some argument about whether or not we should do something in our country, we'll be like, well, but that's not what like the Constitution says this. And that's not what they meant, not what they want. And sometimes I just want to be like, what if it's just like,

  it was a bunch of dudes in a room just because they wore different clothes and had white curled up hair that didn't make them special. And I think we have, you know, made them this mystical dudes. And if they were in button downs and khaki pants, would you see that constitution as some magical piece of paper that they had more information than we have?

  Like if Elon Musk and Bill Gates, and like George Bush and Jeff Bezos, like walked out of room be like, we have a document? Yes. And this is how we're gonna run everything. And I mean, listen, I think that there are parts of the Constitution that are inspirational and beautiful, but it's not like they intended that to apply to anyone but them,

  right, it's, and then set up all the law is based off of that, and the small number and the size of that triangle. Yeah, it can grow, but it can't really change. It's just gonna get like, taller and fewer. And because it's based on this static, nonsensical, imagination based value system. It's not based on what

  is perfectionism. Like, when I first started sort of learning about racism, and being willing to believe that I had unconscious racist beliefs, one of the things that I realized was causing that like now I'm too afraid to make mistakes. Now, I don't want to say anything to anybody. Because what if I make mistakes and I don't want people to not like me. And it was pointed out to me like that level of perfectionism that you think if you can't be right, you're going to be cast aside and rejected and that Will Make You worthless. And so you're clinging to it like that is a value of white supremacy.

  Yes, you will never achieve that. That is a trend. Not

  every culture has that value, right? Sometimes just

  making it, just figuring it out. And what does that look like for you? Who are you the system? You know, I thought about the phrase, there's no I in team. Why do we like that? I am important, okay. In a team, if there's no if we're just doing whatever we're told to do, you have no opinion that is valuable. And it's just not true if you hadn't decided to make a tic toc. And I hadn't decided to make a tic toc. Because you know what? Might as well, and to expect perfectionism, we will never move. I would never put out anything, you wouldn't ever put out anything. And we just stay quiet. sounds gross. sounds gross. I don't want that

  my first tech talks were me being like, this is how you cook chicken. And then the conversation would be like, That's not how you cook chicken. And I'd be like, just kidding. Here's another way to cook chicken. Like I just, I genuinely started doing how to one being like, I'm just making this up. Like, this is what I think I know. And it's funny.

  Once you realize, if you can't do it, like there's no Oh, I like to say there's no destination. So people look at it as like, I'll get to this place. Like how do you get comfortable talking about this? When do you finish where now you're like, I'm good. And that's just not how life should be because there is no destination, anywhere. It should be about the journey. And it should be about making those mistakes and then highlighting those mistakes. This would not be an impactful demonstration of anti racism if you didn't say I did this, and then I did this instead. And now I feel better. If you just went in with how do i i wouldn't be able to really work with that. Because you are a part of it. Everybody is can I tell

  you a totally tangential joke, please do. So when the Little Mermaid like preview came out and I hadn't seen it yet. And they were talking about the like Little Mermaid being black. And for like a hot couple of weeks. I thought we were talking about Halle Berry.

  Well, okay, that's reasonable because itself but here's

  what sounds exactly like, but what's funny to me is like when I realized it wasn't the same person my first thought was like, Casey, like, you need to get real serious about your anti racism work like not every black person is the same just because it seems like God, like see black people as people. And then like, but so I was like kind of being very somber with myself about like, let's look at ourselves. And then I realized that like, I also thought that like Josh Groban and Josh Brolin were the same person. Yeah,

  I mean, give her that everything that's serious.

  And I just recently found out that the lead singer of Florence in the machine did not star in a movie with Harry Styles. Oh, that is in fact, not the same person. Even though her name is Florida. So anyways, I was just laughing at myself, because my initial thought was like, Wow, we got to do some work. Like

  no, just stupid. No, just stupid. Not this one. But I liked it. You're out here. I like you're on the lookout.

  I showed up to the game. There may not have been a game that day. But I was in my uniform. I was ready. Close. It was close when it was close. Okay, okay, we're gonna do the same thing. We did the last podcast, which is Chuck, I have actual questions here. Okay, let's go. One of the things that I loved learning about you was your experience of your own racial identity growing up, so can you tell us about your mom and your dad?

  I can. So my mom is Jewish from Brooklyn. And my father is Jamaican, who also moved to Brooklyn, but was born in Jamaica came here when he was 15. And they somehow found each other. He also was a Jehovah's Witness growing up, which adds a cute little element of fun. The whole X cult life, and my grandmother died still a part of Jehovah's Witnesses, they live together. That was interesting as well as you know, nice little Jewish kids. We worked it out. So just based off that alone, I kind of was prepared for this non traditional life that I did not realize was so foreign, because I grew up mostly in Teaneck, New Jersey, which was the first town to voluntarily integrate their schools. Very proud of that. I grew up with so many biracial friends just because we were friends not because we were biracial. We just happen to be a black Japanese girl a bunch of I was the only Jewish person that was brown in my Hebrew school, but I was okay with it. I was fine. You know, I did ballet and maybe I was the only Brown Girl No, probably not but one a few and I knew that. I knew I was brown. And I would say Brown. You know, when brown Cinderella came out was brown Cinderella, not black to me when Brandi was Cinderella, but when my brother was born, he was very white looking And I was aware, you know, maybe not when he was first born, but even my father would say, I'd asked him, you know, what if, when we learned about Martin Luther King, what if it goes back and you and I Dad are not allowed in the same places mom and Brandon are. And he told me, I didn't know what to say to you, because he hadn't realized that I had realized. But by that point, I mean, my hair was different. I'm a child, I'm not an alien. And so when we have these conversations about if kids should be learning, it's like, well, they are, you know, they can see, I can see things with my eyeballs. And he just said, you know, that'll never happen. And I was like, okay, good. We're in this new world. We're all good with this multiracial family, it's never gonna go back. And I don't have to worry about

  it. And how did that change? When you entered corporate America in the Midwest?

  Oh, my goodness. Well, you know, and it's, I think, corporate America period is a big shift. And I didn't realize at first, you know, it's like one of those things where in hindsight, it's very clear, I wore my hair straight. If you don't know my hair is very curly. Right now. i It's in its natural state has been since I was 26, though, because the world tells you, as a black woman, what your hair needs to look like, it needs to be fixed and professional. Another one

  of those white supremacy, values, professionalism, not being professional, but what professionalism means what kinds of things are professional,

  it's not what you wear every day. It's not how you look every day. It's how that guy looks every day. And what they naturally do you have to look like it to me, it's if you are living in your black self, and you are you have this rich experience a deep colors, like how I like to think about it, and like blacks in this depth of something. And then you go out into the world and into corporate or into the professional world. And it's pastel white supremacy to me is pastel. Yeah, there may be variations and colors, but you know, it's all pastel, it's got this light tint to it. And that keeps it all even in the same family. So when we show up to work, we have to powder ourselves up to be as pastel as possible. And make sure we do not disrupt that powder, we don't move too fast, we don't take any off because the second you, you know if you can see through that, we get called out on it, and are made to feel as though we don't belong in that place. And we can see through that powder you're wearing and you're not really one of us. And that is exhausting to turn that power down and have to not knowing why. Because your value is based on how pastel you show up is hard for the brain, at least for my brain, because I understood. You know, if you do something, well, it will be reflected as such. And someone will say, Hey, you did a good job on this. You know, you can't get past that. But with professionalism, you can get past that. I can do everything right.

  Yeah, I remember you telling me that you were like kicking butt taking names, you were putting out more measurable like KPI output than everyone else on the team, including the people that were supposed to be your managers.

  Yep. And that was a mistake. That was a mistake. Somehow, I didn't learn the rules of professionalism. I was the first person in my family to go to college and to graduate. And then I went to business school, and I thought I was doing something by you know, wearing my currently natural hair at business school. And I was very proud and forthright about my blackness, and that I am here to change things, but also to do a good job. And to have these conversations. And it does not matter. Because of this little thing that I call pet to threat someone else is going to because it's great to have you on be all black women and look at your hair, and then a little bit of the actual petting and the touching that happened here in Chicago did not happen in New Jersey, that you want to start kind of speaking back on it and making your presence known and being very good at the job. Now you are a threat to those who need to see themselves as higher than you. And I did not know that was going to happen. I thought it would make us all look good. But if you're focused on hierarchy, and you're focused on the fact that you are my manager, and now you can't instruct there to desire to help from white people is what I see in this hierarchical structure. If you're a higher than someone, your role is to help them and I would rather have had support, but because you know, I'm good at what I do. I always have been that's how I got there. And then to show up and have a white man asked me if I'm scared of PowerPoint, or if I know that this email is my canvas. And this is where I can show my skills and write out things. Meanwhile, I just you know, one plus one wasn't equaling two and my brain was not what was truth. I didn't know what truth was anymore. That to the point where it's like I I am doing so much and being treated so little, like such a little thing I was told them this I was very forthright and professional, I brought it to HR with HR language. But none of that matter, just like when we talk about on tick tock, you can put everything right. And at the end of the day, he will say, well, I need to help you understand what I'm trying to tell you. You need to have empathy for me in this situation, because I have kids, and I am working through stuff as well. You know, meanwhile, there's protests, and I'm speaking on behalf of black people at work. So I know this is kind of all over. But you know, there was a pandemic, and I'm doing my job. And I'm also educating white women at this job, which made me realize I could do this work as white woman whisperer. So you know,

  who hid and they asked you to do that. Right? They asked me to do

  it. Yes. They want awards based on what I did. Was I the recipient of that award award? No, they won multiple awards off of my work, but somehow still, but then you weren't a team player, right? I wasn't, you know, maybe a cultural fit. I wasn't spending my time, the way I was supposed to listening and obeying, I guess, rules that did not exist, you know, there was silent treatment, but then also micromanaging at the same time. And he just, there was no right way. And I needed that lesson. But I would rather other black women in the workplace not get the lesson I got in the way that I received it, especially these younger generations, it was terrible.

  So I want to take a pause there. And when we come back, I want to talk about the impact that had on your mental health. Okay, we're back with Rebecca, the white woman whisperer. And I mean, okay, so this is the struggle care podcast, right? Like, my book is how to keep household drowning my tic toc channel, it's really all about how to do life and care for yourself when you have barriers in your life. And so I have a lot of people that follow me that have mental illness, mental health issues, that are neurodivergent that are stressed, that are, you know, maybe they have kids, or they just lost somebody or they're chronically ill.

  So there's like, all these different reasons why, you know, you could be experiencing, like limited capacity or barriers in your life. And one of the things that I've learned from you and other black creators on Tik Tok and like authors, and is that the racism isn't just like some uncomfortable thing you experience that it creates this holistic layer of chronic stress. And so can you talk a bit because you had taken a leave from how much stress that caused? So what did that do to your mental health?

  Well, it wasn't great. I'll tell you that much. It definitely wasn't great. It wasn't a good time. But, you know, I'm just so grateful that during that time, I had my boyfriend, who is black and very educated in the black experience. From a generational information standpoint, he came from the south, and went to an HBCU, a historically black college university. And when I was on the brink, I had someone to say, No, this isn't about you. Because I was so sure that I was doing something wrong. Even though I would stay up, I would hyperventilate before work, because as you know, knowing I had to talk to them, I said, in my head, there was something I there was a correct phrase that I had to say, to get them to understand, you know, because it was not just my manager, it was his manager, and the communications between them and the gaslighting of, you know, I get your side, I get his side. And so then I, you know, trying to figure out how to make two people think something is not possible. One, I found out through a lot of therapy, and I'm still in therapy over it, because there's, we are taught that good work, should receive good things, at least I was, and maybe in terms of my neurodivergent. See, I've relied on that. I relied on the fact that regardless of race, regardless of gender, you do the right thing. People can't ignore that. Because it's right.

  KC 34:15

  You work hard, you

  Rebecca 34:16

  raise up the ladder, right? You pull yourself up, all you got to do and I saw another aspect of this was, you know, I would go to many people who said they supported me at this job that won awards based off of me, I would talk to them, what am I doing? What can I do? A lot of white women mostly because that's what I connected with that work. And there weren't many other well, there weren't many of the black people. But if there were, it's kind of like, you know, just stick it out. What did you expect type of thing and I didn't work well with that. But it was always framed as what I could do. You know, if I would go to the VP of HR and say, Hey, this is happening. The response was okay, how can we get you out from under him? As in What job do you need to do? Like, what job can you apply for within the company that gets you out? And it can't make him look back? And you can't burn that bridge. But you also how are you going to framework for the conversations with him moving forward, because you do need his recommendation to get this job. But you are amazing, you cannot leave. We are so happy to have you, you are changed so much. No one said, I'm gonna go talk to that man. No one gave me a way out. There was a lot of victim blaming, if you do that, but so I started not trusting myself, I'm not seeing it. from a higher perspective. I'm just seeing, I'm crying in front of so many people as a black woman. And I'm thinking one of these conversations it's gonna hit. And that's tough.

  KC Davis 35:40

  I mean, it really says it. As a therapist, it sounds so similar to when I have counseled families that have like abusive dynamics, where like, the man is really abusive. And the child is constantly being given this burden of Well, here's how you can navigate his anger so that you stay safe. And the wife is often like the nice white lady who's like, I get it. I know it's wrong. I'm so sorry. Right, but they won't leave him and take you with them. Right? They won't stand up to them. And they're similar products, like different but similar reasons where it's like, oh, I can put my own oppression on the line.

  Rebecca 36:22

  I mean, I'm thinking you don't you want to know if this person is being disrespectful to me and demeaning me just to make a point. And I'm telling him, and he's pretending to write things down. And then he lies and says, I called this meeting to HR when I did, and the HR person is on there, not correcting him, listening to him, gaslight me the whole time, and then claim that I'm not understanding him correctly. And I didn't know gaslighting. I just got out here to Chicago, I moved for this job. I have no family out here. They do the love bombing. So they give you all the stuff in the beginning, I interned first under black leadership with black HR, black everything and was bait and switched a week after moving to Chicago, in my opinion, reorg, whatever. And it's this is my financial livability. And as a black person who was the first one to come out of college, it's like this was success. This was supposed to be the spot I got into, I moved, I got this corporate job making almost six figures or you know, and finally, the immigrant's daughter makes it and but somehow I'm feeling like teeny, tiny, but also blown up and so powerful and impactful. And I'm being praised all the time, but also being diminished and made to question my own sense of self during George Floyd protests, where my company talked about looting and rioting. And I just watched this man at all times a day be nailed on. And I'm connecting dots and things that happened to me and to my brother who doesn't even look very black. But he has a gun pointed in his face across the street from my own house in Teaneck, this beautiful little community. So to put all of that, and then realize what was happening within my own job and how I was questioning myself. And then at the same time, get this data that said, you were blowing the numbers away, like you were serving your customers. They had been looking for you specifically to teach though. And these men not seeing me. Something just snapped.

  KC Davis 38:32

  Is that what get out was about Ooh, like you were describing that and all of a sudden I was realizing like that feeling of like we're in it together and then like this, like I heard like scary museum movie music when it was like dawning on you like, oh, shit, like the call is coming from inside the house. Like these things that have been happening to me and these people that say they love me, but all of a sudden they're talking about looting and rioting like what you're like, Oh, God, yeah,

  Rebecca 38:58

  this is against Wait, I'm working for oh, and they were telling, you know, it was coming to the office. This is you know, we got scientists and the DEI strategy, you know, there was a lot more things in terms of hair touching and stuff that you know, was just coming back to me, and how do you still have trouble processing it interesting. And I'm still in therapy and I have not gone back to that job. And you know, realizing what is for me, I've never thought about it. I've just been trying to survive this whole time. And that's what black people have been taught and trained to do is just up until this point is to survive especially like I think our generation and my dad's was kind of like don't like get there get there and then worry about but I got there was terrible. And I

  KC Davis 39:46

  can imagine like not only first of all I love that your boyfriend like was the one to gaslight you and like bring you back to that that's so huge. And but not only are you experiencing this like extreme like racial gaslighting, racism, racial discrimination and then everyone gaslighting you about it at work. But then like I see you talk about racism online, and I see the comment section just line up with white people going. That's not real. That doesn't happen. We aren't like that the world's not really like that. And it's just like gaslight upon gaslight.

  Rebecca 40:21

  Yeah. So imagine you are sorry, already thinking that like when I was thinking, thinking, How do I explain this to someone and explain to them that it's racist, but really it's just him questioning me at every turn and then deciding it's not right and giving himself credit for things he adds to my work, and then giving the credit to me as if he's doing me a favor. Oh, nice. Nice job adding that sticker on the bottom that he added interest? Did you see how I gave you that? I threw that at you? And I little? How do I convey that to this third party woman? Who is already looking for it not to be true? And do I just list every event? Do I show these? I mean, I have so many emails. This is please show your creativity. But if when you do at this at this at this, and my coworker is texting me on the side? We don't know why he's doing this. I'm so sorry. You have to Can I help you? You could talk to him. But I didn't even think that, you know, I'm just thinking, Oh, well, that's validation.

  KC Davis 41:20

  Well, all the while you knowing and frankly, like, you know, the word intersectional gets thrown around a lot to mean a lot of different things. But like, originally, it was specifically about the legal context of a black woman being discriminated against at a job. And but the problem is, is that like legally, like black woman is not a category unto itself, right. And so she either had to prove she was being discriminated against as a woman, or she was being discriminated against as a black person. And there was no way to nail that down, because the job would go, Well, we have other black people, because they had they had black men there that weren't being treated that way. And they could go, Well, we have women here that aren't being treated that way. And she was like, No, I know, it's the specific intersection of being black and being a woman that my job is discriminating against. And it's like when people are telling you like, I don't know why he's doing that to you. Was there a party? It was like

  Rebecca 42:14

  I do. It's a power thing. And I think I couldn't even admit to myself, like, it's just as plainly as I do is because I'm black. Because God forbid, you know, even saying that out loud. At the time, the fear of having someone negate that someone I was giving me a little bit of validation. Having them go well, I mean, because I had people on my team when I would tell them about because, of course, you know, after George Floyd happened, my director calls and asks me how to talk to the team about what is going on. And I tell them about, you know, touching my hair and how it's rooted in, you know, people being in zoos, and people, you know, being entitled to the black body. And even when they don't realize I will tell them a story about how this happened, and how it made me feel, and afterwards touch my hair, to acknowledge how pretty it is. As if they are not doing the thing I just talked about, I am not even kidding. I had two people, my black director, we were talking about how his dog walker touched my hair before she even knew my name, and how it was crazy. And then the two women hearing it said, Oh, wow, that is nuts. But you do have gorgeous hair, and touched each side of my head. And my director looked at me, we made big eye contact. And that was it. And we talked about it all the time. But that's how insidious it is. And how to then have someone questioned something that I'm struggling to come to terms with already. And it's someone I like, and I'm like losing white women, left and right.

  KC Davis 43:39

  And I've seen the white women in your comments talk about like, but it wasn't because of race, they didn't touch your hair because of race. It's because it's so different. It's because it's beautiful. It's because of that. But the part of that story that really sticks out to me is you and your manager locking eyes because you know, because this has been happening to you your whole life, because you have been experiencing this your whole like, you know why it's happening.

  Rebecca 44:05

  It's deep, like we know immediately and without words, and then we will leave and then be like, Oh my gosh, you know, there is these conversations are happening. And what I like to say on my page every once in a while is like I'm giving you information. We these are not nude conversations for us. We have just always have to have these conversations in silence and you didn't secret away from you because of the reactivity. I don't know if that's helpful. I don't think it's done. It's very good. And you know, the concept when we started, you know, white supremacy, the words saying the words it's like, but for who, who's uncomfortable at hearing the words, white supremacy. It's not us. You know, who's going to be uncomfortable at hearing the N word, which I don't love that we turned it into just another word so that people can say without saying it, say it if you want to say you're just not there consequences, you know, this whole not allowed business is very white supremacy, because we'll be perceived negatively You're allowed to do whatever you want, you know what, who was not allowed? The BlackBerry will we were literally not allowed to read or write. So yeah, no perspective, zoom out every once in a while and think why, who's uncomfortable and why.

  KC Davis 45:13

  So you're on your channel, your experience, I feel like has led to first of all, I love your brain, because you come up with like the best metaphors. So you talked about, like, the volatility. So like, oh, you bring up to someone like, hey, it's because of racism. They're like, what? No, I'm not racist. That's not right. And it's like this white volatility, and which is, I think what most people are referring to we talk about white fragility. And so tell us your metaphor for white fragility, or white privilege.

  Rebecca 45:43

  So I like to start with white privilege being a booger, just pretend someone points out to our white privilege that it's a booger, how are you going to feel if they yell at you? Right? If I go, Hey, stupid, you've got a booger in your nose. And everyone here can see it. Now, that might hurt a little. But now you get to take care of that. And we get to stop staring at you. And you're aware of information that everybody else has. Now you just say thank you, and you wipe it away. Often, no one's gonna scream that at you. But except information, appreciate it. And then just keep going because you will be okay. Now, the other aspect of privilege that I think is a little bit more insidious and violent, it comes around what I was considered the pinata of white supremacy. So like the goals of white supremacy, being rich and white, and thin and Young is this pinata up there. And we're trying to take it down. You know what white women are now like, we got a smash it give us bats, but you're not adept. You just got here. And there's a lot of, you know, Poles and levees in there that's going to go on, and we're just trying to tell you like, hey, excuse me, that's not how you do it. And oftentimes, you turn around because you're covered by that privilege that like that blindness, you have the blindfold, and you have white privilege, and you smack the black woman next to you thinking you're doing something and you're not good. We're trying to help. We don't talk to you because we want to be mean and have sentience. We've got other things to do, like take care of our lives and make sure we can eat when we're talking to white women about white privilege or anything. It's for our own survival and for yours. So if we're telling you, hey, you're not doing it, right, listen, maybe just and not ask for instructions, know that you have a blindfold on. So you need to stop swinging, put the bat down and give it to the people who have been here longer. Let black women tell you one, we don't even want that vignette. If we could just stop swinging at the piano and just go play our own game over there and let them just pull out that thing. They'll get bored. Eventually, they'll just be pulling at the piano. No one will be swinging. And we'll go play good, nice game without that's one where we don't have to smash things or something maybe based on humanity and like sharing resources. I don't know.

  KC Davis 48:03

  I feel like that's like it needs to be like an SNL skit skit. It's so good and visual,

  Rebecca 48:09

  and people added such good things to it, too.

  KC Davis 48:11

  I wish we had so much more time because I feel like we could keep talking. But I don't want to go too far over our time without giving you the chance to plug your podcast and your social channels. Where can people find you if they want to come and learn

  Rebecca 48:23

  so you can find me at White woman whisperer.com There are links to like everything else. So it's a nice one stop shop. I've mostly post right now on Tik Tok and I am out I have a couple episodes of my podcast out which I'm very excited about, which is on everywhere. Podcasts are included in my website. So you know, we're figuring it out trying to grow up our community, definitely consider joining my Patreon. I'm aiming for social capital, or over financial capital trying to start a new model where you know, the people speak and not one guy with a lot of gross paper that has touched

  KC Davis 48:57

  a lot of ham. And is your podcast white woman whisperer? Is that the title that

  Rebecca 49:00

  is white women whisperer, the podcast. I tried to keep very consistent.

  KC Davis 49:05

  I like that. It's everywhere. Awesome. Well, Rebecca, thank you so much for your time and thank you for having me. I just am I grateful that you're in my life. This is awesome. I can't wait to do it again. Bye bye.