40: Anti-capitalist Financial Planning with River Nice

Our topic today is intriguing, so I can’t wait to learn more from my guest. I’m joined by River Nice (they/them), who was originally in a tech job they hated. After using their skill set to help their partner with debt from her gender transition, River found their calling: to help queer people with their money. Now, they run their own financial planning firm, Be Intentional Financial LLC (BIF), to serve their clients and community and help to dismantle oppression in all its forms. Join us to learn more!

Show Highlights:

• Misconceptions people have about the term “anti-capitalist financial planner”

• A look at the harmful and inaccurate mainstream financial advice in our world

• Why we live in fear and worry about our financial survival in a capitalist society

• A look at white privilege and how we can make the world a better place under oppressive systems

• What “redistribution of wealth” looks like, practically speaking

• How River helps clients with investing for long-term financial security

• A charity giving model vs. creating an interdependent community

• How River teaches financial emergency preparedness to clients

• How anti-capitalist financial planning is a holistic view of life, money, values, and relationships

• River’s advice about specific financial scenarios around debt management, living paycheck to paycheck, planning for the future, and accumulating wealth

Resources and Links:

Connect with River Nice: Website, Instagram, and TikTok

Check out River’s Website for FREE resources and a FREE 30-minute consultation!

Also mentioned: the Mint app and the Honeydue app for couples

Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes

• Transcript

  KC Davis 0:05

  Hello you sentient balls of stardust, this is Struggle Care with your host, KC Davis, that's me, therapist, author of the book How to Keep House While Drowning. And this is the podcast where we talk about all sorts of things, mental health, self care, even though the word self care makes me want to vomit. And I have a really great guest today. So I want to introduce river to y'all, they are an anti capitalist financial planner. And when I heard that I was so fascinated. So River, will you just sort of introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about how you got to be an anti capitalist financial planner?

  River Nice 0:38

  Sure, and thanks for having me. So my name is ruber. Nice. My pronouns are they them, the I guess, if I tried to make it a short version of the story. I was working in tech and hated my job. But I know I'm a numbers guy, and I was actually a project manager, and Trump got elected. And I was like, I do not care about the work that I'm doing, there has to be a way that I can do work that uses my skill set and is more useful to especially the queer community. And my partner at that time had a lot of credit card debt from her gender transition. And anytime she tried to find help for it, you know, no financial adviser was going to help a broke trans woman with credit card debt. And the whole internet was like, well stop buying coffee. And she was like, that doesn't help. So I sat with her, and kind of intuitively and kind of with my project management skills just built out like a budget and a timeline and was like, here's what you need to do, here's what it's going to be over. And it was her idea. She was like, this is your calling, you have to help queer people with money.

  KC Davis 1:33

  I love that you mentioned the like, just never buy coffee again, because I had some questions for you. But then we may go out of order, because I have to tell you, like I came from the church world, which is like ruled by Dave Ramsey. And if you're listening in your home, Dave Ramsey is he's like this evangelical budget guy. And he is taken for like wide swaths of really like white America, I would say, as like, oh, the best way to like money manage, and I never like utilized him for anything. But it wasn't until I started kind of deconstructing that I started hearing, like financial planners and CPAs and people that were talking about, like how problematic Dave Ramsey was. And I feel like that is just so the hoarder, like, just if you could just stop eating avocado toast, you could afford a house. So let me ask you this. When I first heard the term, anti capitalist financial planner, my first thought was like, That seems like an oxymoron. And I'm sure I'm not the only one like, what would you say are some of the misconceptions people have when they hear the term anti capitalist financial planner?

  River Nice 2:43

  Yeah, and it's a tricky term, right? It is kind of an oxymoron, it is a very tricky spot to inhabit myself. But it is my shorthand to try to help the people who need me find me. So as far as misconceptions, you know, the capitalists all think that I'm either naive or like a liar. And then, you know, the leftist find me. And some misconceptions are that like, you know, I am trying to operate entirely outside of capitalism, which is not how I actually operate, or that I'm going to tell people that what they're doing is evil or immoral, which is not how I operate. So what I am actually trying to do is say, hey, capitalism is oppression, we agree on that. And I want to help you kind of intentionally live the best life that you can, according to your values, under late stage, patriarchal white supremacist capitalism, and we can get more into that with your questions. But does that help give a sense?

  KC Davis 3:41

  No, it really helps a lot. Because I think that, especially if you've been really exposed to like the shame based financial planning stuff, the don't drink coffee, if you just saved if you were just more responsible, I think a lot of times, I expect that I'm going to encounter that again, right? So I'm going to encounter, you want to get on a plane and go on a vacation when there are people starving, you are so selfish, right? And so there's, I feel like there's this fear of like, Oh, am I going to be told, I can't save up for a house? Or am I going to do what I can't save up for a bigger house? Or am I going to be told that I need to give everything away? Or am I gonna be told? And I think that's a really, first of all, I think that's just interesting information for me that like, that's the fear that comes up. But I also think it's interesting that like, the financial world, unless you're already wealthy is so sewn with, like fear mongering and shame. That's almost like, I didn't even realize that that's what I would expect with like, what's going to be the same shame just with a different, like political ideology. And so I think that's a really helpful clarification, actually. So we kind of touched on this when I wanted to talk about like some of the harmful and inaccurate mainstream financial messages out there, because I think a lot of us have internalized those. And I think a lot of people listening may not even recognize that like, Oh, that's not the only way to survive, or that's not the only way to get out of debt or that's not the only way to like have a life worth living. So I'm curious what other ones you can share with us besides the like stop drinking coffees.

  River Nice 5:10

  I mean, something that I like to say to everyone is that, like, we live in a world where money is necessary for every aspect of survival. Like if you need money for shelter, food, water, health care, and also connection to other humans, and the ability to connect with other humans, like, of course, we're all going to be in fight or flight or freeze or fawn mode about money, like all the time. Because, you know, like, when we break down, like, what are our physiological most basic needs, and then money is necessary for most of them most of the time, like, of course, that's going to mess us up. Of course, we're all going to have a lot of baggage around money. So I like to say that I also find it important to point out like, you were kind of saying, like, there's so much we cannot control about global patriarchal white supremacist capitalism. So I want to help people focus on what they actually can control within themselves, instead of trying to think, well, if I can't fix the world, then it's not worth trying, or I'm not allowed to enjoy a vacation, if there are people who are still suffering, do that black and white thinking, exactly the black and white thinking. So it's not like, I'm not saying totally let go of the things that you can't personally control. But like, notice how much power you actually have in the world and how you're using it intentionally. Instead of feeling like that kind of just American individualism exceptionalism popping up again, of thinking, well, if I just did this, then the world wouldn't be so bad. Or maybe I suffered more other people would suffer less.

  KC Davis 6:38

  Ooh, if I suffered more than maybe other people would suffer less, that is a really powerful sentence. Because I think that there's obviously some truth to this idea of, you know, I want to make my table bigger, or like, I want to share what I have, or I want to bring others up with me, or I want to, I want to lean into creating and being a part of an interdependent community. Like, I don't want to hoard, you know, stuff while people. But I feel like those things are all really admirable. And yet, when I talk to people about it, it seems like what most of us have interpreted from that is, maybe if I suffer, other people won't have to suffer, even if the suffering doesn't actually create any material. I see that with environmentalism a lot, where it's like, if I throw this one thing away, and it's like, I mean, yeah, it'd be great if we could all you know, live out of a mason jar of trash every year, but like life is life. And it's that sort of black and white thinking, which I find really interesting, especially with my platform of talking about moral neutrality. And some of these issues, obviously have some moral implications. But I just am so blown away, every time I realize how much of our headspace as like humans in this society is filled with, if I don't make these right decisions, I'm a bad person. And if I'm a bad person, I don't deserve to be loved. And I think that's what sort of gets us to that I have to suffer if other people are suffering. So that's really, really fascinating. Do you have any others on the list? I think about, I don't know, the amount of times that a thought flies out of my brain on this podcast is impressive. So it's fine. And if you want us to cut anything out, you don't have to take a minute, we'll do that, too. Oh, and I had a question too. And I'm trying to like, crawl it back into my brain. Oh, I think I was just gonna relate like when you said, every need, we have, like these deeply human needs, like we live in a society where we have to pay for all of it. That like almost brought me to tears. This is already I'm going like we're nine minutes in. And this has been like an oddly emotional topic for me, because I genuinely like even though we are financially stable, in many ways, financially privileged, that fear has not gone away. That fear of what if tomorrow, my husband dies, and we don't have his income? What if tomorrow, one of my kids gets cancer, and we have to be able to afford all of this? What if tomorrow, you know, a war starts in the US, and all of a sudden, we don't have access to these things? Right? Like, I think a lot of the times, when we look at that frantic, like, I don't want to I want to hoard wealth, or I want to just hustle and grind. I think we can talk about the aspect of that that is fueled by greed. And that's real, right. And we can talk about the aspect of that that's fueled by white supremacy, and all those things. But I wonder if there isn't also just a real human element of like, it's terrifying. To love people and to think about your ability to keep them safe and healthy, is dependent on having the money to do that, and how hard it must be to have that fear. And also hear people will be like, just relax it. It's like it feels so I don't know if you have any thoughts on that, but that just really touched me.

  River Nice 9:57

  Yeah, absolutely. And like who said benefits by us being so scared. And so on the edge of survival all the time, you know, like, capitalism in the big picture is like the 1% of actual, like owners exploiting the rest of us. And we are better laborers if our survival is threatened by us not having the money that we are laboring for, to pay for the survival things. So like the system is working as designed. And of course, it's making us all have really intense feelings about it all the time. Like, I'm not surprised that you're on the verge of tears, nine minutes in talking about this, I have people crying in meetings with me all the time. Like, it's our literal survival we're talking about and then the financial services industry wants to paint it as this like cold spreadsheets, there's no emotions, here. It's just money. It's just hard data. But like, when the hard data reflects whether or not we're going to be okay, in old age, our kids are going to be okay, our parents are going to be okay. Like, our trans community is going to survive, like, of course, we're all a mess about it. And there has to be space for that, if you're going to be able to do anything intentionally with it. Yeah,

  KC Davis 11:07

  I want to pause there just for a second, we'll take a short break, and we'll come right back. So sometimes, when I and this could be like your personal opinion, your professional opinion, just thoughts in general, I watch a lot of content where people talk about like, sort of like the evils of hustle and grind. I won't even say culture, but it's like, as a prescriptive. Like, that's it equals your moral fortitude, like get up hustle and grind. And I watch a lot of content about like talking about like slow living, and it's okay to not like, live for the weekend, like it's okay to rest and enjoy your life. And to not have to feel as though you have to be producing, producing, producing, producing. And one of the things that so I find that content really fascinating when it comes to financial planning in the financial world, because I hear a lot of people say, I don't know how I'm supposed to interpret this message when I'm living like paycheck to paycheck. Like I'm not like hustling grinding, because that's my worth. I'm doing it because like, I have to pay my water bill. So how am I supposed to incorporate these, you know, what are anti capitalist ideas about my humanity, when I'm paycheck to paycheck, and then I have almost like the opposite end of the spectrum response, where I watch that content, and I go, Yeah, I want that. I want that I want to wake up and, you know, talk for hours with my spouse on in the garden, I want to be there for every one of my kids like soccer games and not have to like necessarily go into work, I want to work a job where I can work a couple or a few hours a day, and then be able to do these other meaningful pursuits. But one of the things that confronts me when I have those thoughts when engaging that content as a cisgendered, white, upper middle class female is, but to do that is just my privilege. That's just me living a privileged life. And I don't know if this goes back to the life but if I suffer, other people suffer also. And I sometimes don't know how to someone who is financially privileged and is just privileged, in other respects, engage or incorporate those type of anti capitalist ideas about maybe slow living, or, you know, having a more holistic focus on life because you don't have to hustle and grind. Because there's this like, achy part of me that's like, oh, I mean, I could just retire and be like, a kept housewife. But like, that doesn't feel very anticapitalist of me. So I'm curious if you have any thoughts about that. And I'm sorry, this is basically turning into a therapy session where I'm just asking you to talk about my financial emotional issues.

  River Nice 13:44

  No, that's really interesting. And I'm glad you brought it up. I don't think you're the only person asking that question and thinking about it. And I guess what I am thinking through as you're talking is, like, I guess what I would be thinking through if I was to try to advise you on this, I would be thinking through like, the privileges that you have, or that I have, and like what I am doing to make the world better, while also making my life as good as it can be under all the oppressive systems. So like, I also am like white and upper middle class, I am Trans and Queer that I'm neurotypical, able bodied, thin, you know, like the axes of oppression that affect me are pretty few and it's mostly just being trans and queer. So I see my place is like building the life that I want, because I am part of the queer and trans communities and it is important to me that we get the chance to build the lives that we want, and seeing how I can redistribute the resources that I have available to me, relative to my levels of privilege and access to resources. So for me, it is fairly easy to make money because I am white and neurotypical. So I feel a sense of obligation to make that money and redistribute some of it to black and indigenous group. People specifically, I also have the ability to, you know, be self employed and set up my work day work week year in the way that best works for me. But I don't want to end up working unrealistic amounts or an unrealistic schedule that I burn out. And I'm not useful. I'm trying to play the long game. I'm trying to play my whole life, how do I live my whole life in accordance with my values. So if I'm trying to set myself up to work as much as possible, and make as much money as possible to redistribute as much as possible, that might not be able to work for the next 60 years. And I want it to work for the next 60 years. So for me, it's setting up the business and the life where I am helping people that I feel like my skill set is most useful in helping you know, I'm not necessarily able to help every single person with their financial planning, I can help a type of person and a type of situation most effectively. And then how do I make my time and energy efficient to that end, while still making enough money to redistribute while still being able to have kids and spend time with my kids? Does that help? And like how I would be thinking through this? Yeah.

  KC Davis 16:06

  And I also think that, you know, when we talk about redistribution of wealth, can you talk a little bit more about like, what does that practically look like when you're talking with clients? Because I think there are probably a lot of people listening that already have maybe some preconceived notions about what that means. Maybe some people even feel this fear, because they relate, you know, just redistribution of wealth with some type of political movement or governmental movement, or, you know, maybe they're thinking, Oh, this woke stuff. And then I think there's a lot of people that say that, hear it and like it and think, yes, I want to be a part of that. But I gotta be honest, I don't know that I really understand the intricacies of what that looks like, outside of like giving money to a charity giving money to a person. And is that what it means? Or are there other more strategic ways that people can go about? Or they start thinking about that?

  River Nice 17:00

  Yeah, totally big questions, but I love them. I want to first point out that, like capitalism is not a pressing is all equally, right. So that means that where you are starting from and where you currently are, is going to inform what redistribution means to you. So for folks who are listening, who come from, like, generational wealth, I would point you to resource generation as a national movement with possibly a chapter local to you that can help you figure out your specific values, your personal practice, on how you approach this work, and then how much to give and where to give and how to give. Most of the clients that I work with come from working class or lower middle class backgrounds, but now have access to money for the first time. So they have the money, and they have no information about what to do with it. Right. So for those folks, we talk through what to do with the paycheck as it comes in. Right? We're not talking about inherited generational wealth, we're talking about a high paycheck when you are not used to experiencing high paycheck. In that high paycheck, we can list out the budget, you know, shelter cost, this much food cost this much healthcare costs this much. And then as we get to the more discretionary parts of the budget travel going out to eat entertainment, hobbies, we figure out a level of giving that reflects how important redistribution and reparations is relative to those other items. So sometimes I'll see like a 22 year old white queer person who has so much white guilt, they're giving away more per month than they are actually able to, like pay their own bills. And that's not a sustainable thing to continue to do that suffering is disproportional with the amount that you're helping. But if you are able to take a trip once or twice a year, maybe you can also redistribute the same amount as what you put towards that trip. If you are again, like you know, a white upper middle class person, you know, like these other factors of privilege have to come into the equation and thinking about what you're doing. But if you can give at a level that reflects how important economic justice and racial justice is to you compared to your takeout, your entertainment, your travel, etc, that can give you a guiding principle to start with.

  KC Davis 19:11

  Do you talk to people also about like, how they can invest that money or grow that money because like one thing that I I'm that person that's like out the gate, like, let's just give all of it, you know, away. And it really was my husband that was like, here's the thing like, yes, we want to give now. But if we also take a portion of this and invest, like there will be more money and more security down the road to give bigger amounts to offer ourselves a kind of stability that allows us to be more involved in things. And that was kind of a big eye opener for me because like I didn't know anything about like investing or I didn't know anything besides get a paycheck, pay your bills, maybe have a savings account. So I don't know if that was a question but thoughts

  River Nice 19:58

  Yeah, yeah. And this is something that I'm actively exploring and questioning for myself as well, right? Like, I don't think I'm like an expert, and I'm done. And now I never have to question these things. Again, my approach thus far has been that those of us who have the ability to have money in older age like to be investing for the long term and have access to money, when we can no longer work, in some ways have kind of a responsibility to have those resources available for the community at that time, like you said, and in another way of thinking, if we are continuing to follow along that idea of individual wealth growth in order to contribute to community as more of a like, giving to charity model instead of I am part of a community and we all share resources all the time model. It's a tricky spot. So currently, for me and my clients, and again, knowing that the majority of my clients are not coming from generational wealth. And now as money for the first time, we do talk about investing, and trying to choose investments that avoid fossil fuels that avoid private prisons. But invest to be able to have that security of safety as old people, especially as like, older trans people, you know, like, we can try to work on that while still giving part of the paycheck every month. Again, for folks who are coming from more generational wealth, I would point those hooks to resource generation because they're doing some really cool work about envisioning what retirement could look like as a community care practice instead of as an individual piles of money practice. And especially if you're coming from financial security that can be really cool to explore what it looks like to invest that money in, trying to create universal health care, so that we'll all be okay as old people instead of just a couple of us being okay, as old people.

  KC Davis 21:47

  Yeah, it's interesting when you talk about like the difference between a charity giving model and creating an interdependent community, because that's one thing that we've recognized for ourselves, which is like, it's weird. I mean, it's not weird, right? Like, there are some great organizations out there. But there is something about having exclusively a charitable giving model that distances you, I think that's both to the detriment of the people you're trying to help, and also to our own detriment, because it doesn't create interdependent community. And it keeps us in this position of I'm someone that has at all, and I give to the have nots, as opposed to, I also have needs, that I could be getting met through my community, these human needs, that I could be getting that through my community. And that was kind of a big aha moment that I had this last year, which is like, okay, and then once you start having that conversation, then it's not just like, What do I do with my paycheck? It's like, where do I live? And who do I live by? And where do my kids go to school? And it's not like, I think that there's one right answer for all those questions. But it's interesting how what you think is, like you said, just like this dry conversation about the numbers, all of a sudden is like, Wait, like, I don't want to be alone. I don't want to have to, you know, it's really isolating to be in a position, like you said, where every single support needs you have has to be paid for. And there's no interdependency where, yes, this person might pick up my kids for me, but I go over there and help them with, you know, XYZ. And that, to me, is more anti capitalist than this idea about, like how much money I do or don't have, right, like,

  River Nice 23:34

  Right, totally. And to come back to what you were talking about earlier about how scary it is, you know, what if my kid gets sick, what if my husband dies? What if? What if, what if, when I teach financial emergency preparedness, we talk about multiple ways to protect yourself, right. So there's having the emergency savings fund just like liquid cash available to pay an unexpected bill or whatever. We talk about insurance policies that you can get like life insurance, that if something happens to you, your family gets money to help them get through what they need next. But then there's also that social safety net, and you can invest in that in other ways, and in financial ways. So if you did have your third emergency in one year, if you did have a housing crisis, if you did have you did have like, who would you turn to? And are you nurturing those relationships? And like, I think sometimes, especially working with a lot of trans people, it's like, well, family of origin is not a place to turn back to and I get that. And what are the other nonprofits doing work to help us or doing work about some of these financial crises that people experience? What are the mutual aid groups what your neighbor is doing? And like, how can you make sure that you are a valued member of the community even if you don't have much money or time or energy to give How can you like show up and create social connection with other people and provide them the social connection that all of us need? So that eventually if you do have your like, tough emergency or third or fourth emergency, like there are people You can turn to

  KC Davis 25:01

  well, and one of the things that I think is interesting when we talk about being interdependent with people, and this is sometimes money, or sometimes other types of help or connection is that it feels so vulnerable to ask someone for help. But one of the things that I've learned is that, and there's been studies on this too, like, when somebody asks me for help, it makes me feel more comfortable asking them in turn, like human beings are actually very comfortable with this idea of like, it's not being in someone's debt, but it's like, there's something about, you know, man, I don't know, I don't have words today, but you get it, right. Like, there's a lot of, I think, sometimes we're so afraid to be the first person to ask for help. And in my experience, like I had a friend that she had a little girl that was the same age as one of my daughters. And we both lived in a city. We didn't know anybody we had done, like some playdates. And one of the things I find really difficult is like, how do I take people from this sort of like nice acquaintance to like, an intimate person that I'm doing life with as a support system. And there was a day where I had something really important that I had to get to, and my kids got sick. And she out of nowhere texted me. Oh, it was before this, actually. So that we had a natural disaster here in Houston. And there was no water, there was no electricity. My house was one of the only ones that had electricity. And so I invited her and her family to come stay with us for a few days. And it was like kind of a leap. Like, we didn't know each other super well. But I was like, yeah, come on, and do this. And then like, not a few weeks later, like my kids had gotten sick. And she texted me and was like, Do you want me to come over and watch them. And there was really it was that like, reciprocal nature of like, someone has to kind of make the first move to either ask for help or offer help, is awkward as it feels. And like, that was the thing that took us to the next level. And I kept waiting for the comfort and the familiarity and the intimacy to be there before I felt comfortable asking or offering help. And then I realized, Wait, asking and offering help, is what gets you to that point of like that new sort of depth of a relationship. And so I think that's really interesting.

  River Nice 27:07

  Yeah, I live in an apartment building that is five apartments. And a couple weeks ago, I just invited all my neighbors over, I just like, put out some chips and salsa, I baked some cookies. And I was just like, everybody come by between five and eight. I like made it very, like, need to understand this is what's happening. Here's a picture of the food, like, these are the times come knock on my door. And most of the other folks did come by and I was like, look like, let's just get to know each other a little bit. What is everybody do? What is everybody's schedule? Like? Can we all start a Text group chat, so that when a package gets delivered on the front stoop, and you're not home, someone else can bring it in before it gets stolen. And it's just, it's just a starting point. But I had realized, like, I moved into this apartment right before COVID, shut everything down. So I never actually met the other people in my building. And I was like, Hey, I would love to just like put faces and names together and like, start a group chat for logistical things in the building. But now if somebody's like, Oh, can you feed my cat, oh, my car broke down, or whatever. It's like, now you have a little group chat of people just in the building. And then if there is some kind of bigger crisis, we all have each other's contact info and a little bit of an understanding of what each other's lives are like, so we can try to help each other out like that. So I love that you like then moved from the acquaintance to the like actual mutual care, taking care of each other's families, as as possible. But like, yeah, it's getting started. That's tough.

  KC Davis 28:29

  And I think, you know, as we talk more, the idea of like, what does it mean to be an anti capitalist financial planner, it seems like, so much of it is about looking holistically at a person's life. And that money is just one part of it, and one expression of what their values are. And I think that, to me, seems like the biggest difference because most financial advisors that I've ever, like watched content about or seen personally, like, it is this very, like, myopic view of like, let's look at your money, and how can we make more of it? As opposed to how is money fitting into your life?

  River Nice 29:05

  Exactly. I think of money as a tool that we can use in different ways and debt to money and debt are tools that we can try to use within you know, the bounds of everything we're experiencing. So instead of how do I have the highest number possible at any cost? It's how do I use this tool to have the best life I can? And how do I use this tool in accordance with my values?

  KC Davis 29:27

  Well, I feel like that's like one of the biggest misconceptions too is like debt is bad. Debt is always bad. I had that

  River Nice 29:33

  message. You said Dave Ramsey, and I was like, Yep, he says that we are sinners, and we are terrible people if we have any debt at all, and that we're not allowed to have a single ounce of joy in our life until all of the debt is gone. And who benefits from that? Because it's not you and me.

  KC Davis 29:49

  Well, it's a lot easier to stay in your, you know, like, not even making survival wages. If you feel like you just deserve to have no joy in your life and because of your orell failing of being in debt, and that you can't go out and have any fun, which is alright, yeah, you won't have any more. You won't need money to have fun because you'll just be. Yeah. All right, another quick break. And then I want to get into some questions about like, where people might start depending on where they are. Okay, we're back. And so remember, I had like, sort of this 1234, like different scenarios. And I would love to hear if you have any, like practical takeaways, or maybe just some overarching advice, but like, where could someone else position start? So the first one would be like, if someone's in a lot of debt, and they just don't even really know where to start? Like, where do you start with them? Where could just like a listener start?

  River Nice 30:40

  But I always start with organizing, actually, what is the debt? Where is it? How much do you owe? What are the interest rates? What are the minimum payments, a lot of times folks are so scared that they refuse to even look at it, which I totally get, right. Again, this feels like a direct threat to survival. But you're not gonna be able to do much about it, if you don't know actually the extent of the situation. So you can go to the Federal Student Aid website to get the actual specific numbers about your student loans. And you can get your credit reports from annual credit report.com, for free to find out, what are the other debts associated with your social security number? Where do they live? Who do you owe the money to? How much money do you actually have anything in collections or not? I make your list, you know, right out, how much do I owe to whom, what's the minimum payment, what's the interest rate, if you're in a situation where you can make all of the minimum payments, great, you work on building a budget, or just having money flow in and flow out in such a way that you make at least the minimum payments. And I would always always rather see somebody making minimum payments sustainably than throwing too much money on the debt and then having to go further into debt before the next paycheck comes. So that would be a starting point. If you are able to make more than the minimum payments, and you don't know how much is sustainable. There's a free online calculator called the debt blaster calculator, you can Google debt blaster calculator, and that'll help you understand how throwing an extra 10 bucks a month is going to impact your debt timeline or an extra 20 bucks a month, and kind of go from there. But again, make sure that you are keeping enough money, like liquid in your checking account, if you have, you know, if possible, if you're actually making enough to live to be able to afford all your bills so that you're not going further into debt before your next paycheck just because you threw too much at the debt upfront.

  KC Davis 32:25

  Also, I was like an absurdly old age before I realized that you could like call companies and negotiate and try and work out like, you know, I can pay you a smaller amount now or like, I didn't know I did that. That was even something that you could do.

  River Nice 32:40

  Yeah, it's always worth a try. I'm glad you brought it up. I feel like in our current economic environment, it's going to be hard to get any credit issuers to decrease interest rates, because interest rates are on the rise everywhere. But you can try you know, and if you're doing the dishes anyway, or doing something else anyway, and you don't mind sitting on hold for half an hour. It's worth a try. And when it comes to making decisions like that, like is it worth this time and effort to try to save money? I think about like, is half an hour of my time worth potentially $100? For me, yes. You know, and so that's a way to think about whether the effort might be worth the return. And then certainly, if anything, does go to a collections agency, absolutely negotiate that do not pay them in full. That's not how they work. But I don't want to spend too much time on this.

  KC Davis 33:26

  I find that with medical bills, too. Like, yeah, I mean, yeah, like my credit card company is not going to like cut me a deal for us or whatever, right? I'm like, student loans aren't but often if you call a hospital and just say like, I don't have this money, they'll often be like, Alright, can you give me a fourth of it? Or whatever? Yep. Okay. So next one, how do you work with someone who is living paycheck to paycheck or like they're just surviving?

  River Nice 33:52

  Yeah. So similar advice in terms of getting organized, I think a lot of times, we are avoiding the reality of the numbers of the situation, because it's so painful and stressful to look at and can be, like, demoralizing to look at. But I want you to try to gain agency where you can first because I think what's so terrible from one of the many things that's so terrible about being stuck in barely surviving mode is that feeling of just a total lack of autonomy and agency. So if you can go look at like an actual, like, where all of your money went last month, where all of your money came in last month? And here, are there any changes that you want to make? I'm not saying you have to cut out the copy to be a good person, right? I'm not saying you need to do X, Y, or Z to be a good person. I'm saying, Are there opportunities for you to claim agency and autonomy in your day to day financial reality? And then, you know, maybe looking at how much money you make can give you an indication of whether this gig pays better than that gig or putting more of your time and energy towards this thing versus that thing. Or if you took a class online, you'd be able to improve your skills To get a better paying job in your industry, like looking at opportunities to increase income, looking at opportunities to decrease expenses, maybe if you can find a cheaper place to live, you know, like, all of this is up to your autonomy, your decision for your life, none of it makes you a good or bad person. But like if you have opportunities to adjust your situation incrementally that could help you end up in a better situation in the long run.

  KC Davis 35:26

  That's great advice. Do you have any like favorite online, like websites that will like kind of automatically do like a pie chart of where your spending is going?

  River Nice 35:35

  Great question. So not a pie chart and not automatic. But I do have a free spreadsheet template on my website, be intentional financial.com. And that is designed to take you through looking at your money for the very first time. So you can follow this steps there. It comes with a series of videos telling me what to do if manual data entry into a spreadsheet via a computer is not accessible to you. The min app is the free app that you can use on your phone that links with your bank accounts, you just have to go in and categorize each of the transactions that happened because the artificial intelligence is probably going to categorize things incorrectly the first time. So that can be a free tool to try. And then if you are you and a partner wants to do it together, one of my clients recently told me that they really liked the honey do app to be able to manage it as a couple. So those are a couple of free things to get started.

  KC Davis 36:23

  Cool. Okay, so how about somebody who is financially stable, maybe for the first time ever? And they're now thinking towards the future? And kind of going, where do I start? Because there's all sorts of things out there like that can feel really intimidating, about like a 401k, a Roth IRA, and just investing? Do I just build a savings? Like what what does that look like for someone who wants to start planning for the future?

  River Nice 36:47

  Totally. So that is the type of person who might benefit from working with me, honestly, that's the type of situation that I am most qualified and useful for. So I offer free consultations, if anybody wants to talk to me for 30 minutes and get a sense of what they need to focus on first, and whether it is the right time and price point to work with a professional or not. So be intentional financial.com, you can schedule that pre consultation. Besides that, I suggest that people start short term and then start thinking longer term from there. So first, build up the emergency savings, to make sure that you can handle an unexpected bill, make sure that you've got a monthly budget that includes how much you're redistributing, if that's relevant to your experience, and then start thinking about how much am I saving up per month for the thing that I want to do six months from now, a year from now, two years from now? And then am I investing for things that are further away than two years from now? And am I thinking about investing for retirement? So that could be a framework to start with?

  KC Davis 37:45

  All right. And then the last question, where would you start with someone who came to you and they had really already begun to accumulate wealth?

  River Nice 37:52

  Yeah. Similarly, I would start with the short term and build out to the longer term, because we want to be doing all of this for long term sustainability, the lives that we want. But if you do already have wealth, we're talking a little bit more on the redistribution end of things and what is sustainable while still letting you have a good life. So we'd be looking at short term is what I have prepared for emergencies actually appropriate, or am I keeping too much cash around too much cash in the bank? How much having invested so far for my medium and long term goals? And is that appropriate? Do I have a chance at inheriting more in the future? And what am I going to do with that inheritance? With that unearned money as it comes in? And yeah, kinda like how do all the pieces fit together according to my values, and like, levels of privilege? Does that help?

  KC Davis 38:45

  Yeah, that's awesome. Those are all really my question. This has been honestly a really cool conversation. I think you kind of hit the nail on the head when it's like most people think about money is going to be a dry subject, but it's really not when you talk about holistically and so I really appreciate the conversation. Yeah, are there any other things about you you would like to plug before we go

  River Nice 39:04

  oh, people can find me on Instagram river nice stuff, financial planner. Tiktok River, not river nice dot finance. And then like I said, my website is the intentional financial.com. And thank you so much, Casey for talking about money on the podcast. And money is like still one of the biggest taboos and I think it really helps to be able to talk about it and hear about it and start conversations. So thanks for having me.

  KC Davis 39:25

  Awesome. Thank you.