57: Hoarding: Two Experts, Part 1
Hoarding: the word is recognizable, but the truth is that most people don’t understand what hoarding is and how it happens. We are pulling back the curtain on the deeper emotions behind hoarding in today’s episode. I’m joined by “That Hoarder,” the host of the podcast, Overcome Compulsive Hoarding. You will notice that we are not using her name as she wishes to remain anonymous. Anonymity allows her to talk openly and honestly about hoarding and its stigma and shame. Join us to learn more!
Show Highlights:
● What hoarding looks like–and why it’s much more than simply having “too much stuff”
● The transition from being a “messy” person to someone who couldn’t let anything go
● How That Hoarder realized she had an organization problem
● Why finding bargains is a problem for That Hoarder
● Why she started her podcast, Overcome Compulsive Hoarding
● How she began therapy for PTSD and slowly revealed the hoarding disorder
● What therapy techniques have helped That Hoarder: doing “experiments,” dealing with overwhelm, and asking why
● Why curiosity is a valuable tool for That Hoarder
● Common misconceptions about hoarding disorder
● That Hoarder’s advice for someone with a friend or family member with hoarding challenges
● What to consider when children are being raised in a hoarding environment
● How to gain confidence and exercise your de-hoarding muscle
● Helpful mantras and motivations that work best for That Hoarder
● Early warning signs that someone is passing from being messy into hoarding
● Why hoarding is more than just “keeping too much stuff” and boils down to the struggles of mental anguish, obsessing, and compulsion
Resources and Links:
Connect with That Hoarder: Website and Podcast
Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook
Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning
We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes
-
KC 0:05
Hello, you sentient ball of stardust. Welcome to struggle care. I'm your host, Casey Davis. And this episode is going to be a little mini series called two experts where I'm going to talk about a topic with two different experts. The first expert is an expert because of their personal first hand experience and the issue. And the second one is going to be an expert because of their training and knowledge from an academic route, like a professional route. So this episode is me talking to someone with first hand experience with hoarding disorder. And then later this week, I'll release a bonus episode where I talk to an expert who is an expert by way of their profession in hoarding. So hope you enjoy. And here we go. So I have with me here, the podcast host for that hoarder. And I just wanted to thank you, first of all, for coming on and taking the time to
Speaker 2 0:54
talk with me. Thank you for asking me.
KC 0:56
And so one of the things that the audience might notice is that I'm not going to use your name. And that's because you've asked to be anonymous. And do I understand correctly? You're anonymous on your podcast as well? That's
Speaker 2 1:06
right. Yeah. Yeah, I feel like I can talk more freely. My holding is a big secret in my life. And yeah, I feel like if people knew who I was, well, if people knew who I was, I wouldn't have the podcast at all. There's just so much stigma around the condition. And it's a hard thing to talk about. But if people don't know who I am, then I can talk openly.
KC 1:33
So where would you say if you were to kind of paint as a picture of what hoarding looks like for you?
Speaker 2 1:39
I used to think it looked like too much stuff. And it does look like too much stuff. But I have come to understand that it's actually a big, messy combination of being scared to make decisions and get things wrong. It's not trusting my own judgment. It's a lot of fear. It's indecisive lives. It's layers of trauma. It's all these kinds of I use the word messy deliberately things.
KC 2:19
Is there anyone in your life that knows that you struggle with hoarding?
Speaker 2 2:23
Yes, my best friend knows, although we have never talked about it, but she's the person who knows me better than anyone. And I know, she knows that she knows, I know. But we don't talk about it. My therapist knows. Although even with her, it took a while to tell her other than that. It's just kind of accepted that within my friends that we don't do things at my house, nobody asks why nobody pushes it. And same within my family. I think they can't have not noticed that I don't invite people over. And they have known me as a messy person through my life, but how much they know about the full situation? I don't know.
KC 3:13
So how did you first realize that you were experiencing hoarding? You know, you talked about kind of being messy in your life. But when did you realize that maybe it had become something different than just messy.
Speaker 2 3:24
So I was definitely messy growing up, that was the thing I would be in trouble for as an otherwise very well behaved child. And then I became a messy adult. And then there was a period of my life, were in my early 20s, when I had no income for a while for about six months, and then very low income for about a year after that. And I was in a place where if I got rid of something and needed it, it was impossible to replace it. I could barely buy my basics. So everything took on a new significance. And it was not inaccurate to say that, what if I need it was a real question. And I think that was the periods where I changed from a messy person, to somebody who couldn't let anything go. And then when I started having enough money to live again, I held on to the stuff I think partly, I knew now that that was a real thing that could happen. And if it can happen once it can happen again, and there was a lot of that, but also, I feel like it was there anyway, I feel like the period of poverty brought it out. And but even then, I didn't know the word hoarding. I didn't know hoarding was a thing. And I was convinced for a long time after that, that I had adds an organization problem. My problem was, I couldn't organize my things properly. And so I would buy shelves, and I would buy boxes, and it wouldn't solve the problems. So I would get folders and it wouldn't solve the problem. And it took me a long time to realize that I had a volume problem, not an organization problem. And by then it was it felt so entrenched that I just didn't know how to get out of it.
KC 5:35
So where are you now with hoarding with that journey,
Speaker 2 5:39
I am in a place where I feel like my head has made a lot of progress. And my home is making much slower progress. So I feel like I'm a lot better at being able to challenge my own bullshit, when the holding part of my head is trying to justify why I need to keep something, I'm so much better at challenging that and getting being more rational about things. And being more okay to let things go. And all of that, what I'm finding is that the physical process of doing it is really hard and slow.
KC 6:27
So when I was in school, one of the things that they when we would talk about hoarding, we would talk about kind of like two different subtypes. And one is when it's difficult to let anything go, it's kind of like the front door and the back door, right? Like it's difficult to get rid of anything you have. And then the other side of it was that you can't stop getting new things. So like, you might get new items at a quote unquote, normal pace, but you can't let anything go. And that can obviously cause a hoard. Or even if you let go of things at a normal pace, if you have so much stuff coming in, that can also cause a hoard. So do you struggle with one over the other,
Speaker 2 7:05
I would say an element of both, it's been more of a problem of letting things go. But I have certain boxes that if they're ticked, I want to acquire all the things. And so for me, probably the biggest one is bargains, if something is really cheap, or if something is great value, I find that hard. My biggest one to the point that I've had to stop going in them at all is charity shops, because it takes everything's cheap, you're helping a charity, everything's recycled because somebody else already owned it. It's all of these kind of, it's a mixture of I'm saving money. Plus, I'm a good person. And plus, I'm not making the world a worse place. All of those combine to mean that if I'm in a charity shop, I really struggled to not come home with things that I probably don't need. So for me, I'm not bringing everything in, but I do know, I have certain weak points that I have to be really conscious of.
KC 8:19
And how do you you talked a little bit at the beginning about the stigma that surrounds hoarding? You know, how do you cope with that?
Speaker 2 8:28
Weirdly, there are two reasons I started the podcast. One was that I wanted there to be a podcast from the point of view of somebody who holds rather than a professional, the ones from professionals are great, but I really wanted to hear that voice. And it didn't exist. And so I thought there's a space I have to fill, which is kind of what I do. So it was partly that. And it was partly that, at that stage, I had nowhere to talk about this nowhere. And I knew I needed an outlet. And I didn't want to keep a diary. I have 40 odd years of trying to keep diaries and failing. So I thought I'm just gonna tuck into my phone as I can audio diary. And so it started as I need somewhere to talk. This is a place to talk. And there's something about having talked about it now 112 times to arrange to either about my experiences, or to a range of professionals and hearing from other people because it took on this whole life that I wasn't expecting, that does make me it reduces that shame to some degree. Because when you hear from enough people, it's like you're in my brain, or it's so helpful to hear you talk about it or just I can really relate to that and you think Well, these are good people, you know, maybe I'm okay. And also speaking to the professionals I've spoken to, which has been like academics and therapists and all sorts is really, there's something about them just talking really normally about this thing that makes me think maybe it's okay. But then on the other side, I get so many messages privately because people say, I can't say this publicly, because nobody must know. But I listen. And I've got this problem as well. And so it's a real, I feel like that. Certainly, here in the UK, there are some quite high profile, mental health, anti stigma campaigns, and I feel like they've done good work, but they have never moved beyond D stigmatizing anxiety and depression. And I am all for D stigmatizing anxiety and depression. Don't get me wrong, but I want them to destigmatize schizophrenia, and borderline personality disorder and hoarding disorder and those that people have a much more negative reaction to or much more judgmental reaction to. And I'm kind of inadvertently doing some of that work myself unplanned. And there's something about if you keep saying, this shouldn't be shameful to other people. You have to apply some of that to yourself,
KC 11:25
I think. Yeah. So which came first, the podcast or the therapist, the podcast? Do you think having the podcast helped you to seek out a therapist?
Speaker 2 11:35
Yeah, I started seeing a therapist about something different. I also have PTSD. And I was seeing her about those kinds of issues. And I spent a lifetime or certainly an adulthood compartmentalizing this away. And so I have been really good about I've had mental health support over the years and never talked about this. And so I went into this more recent relationship with that same compartmentalization. Just I'm here to talk about this trauma thing that's risen up again, after being a bit quiet for a few years. And I will keep the holding compartmentalized. And then after a bit of time, it was becoming an issue that I wanted to talk to her about. But I was really, really, it felt impossible. And then I just told her, and we spent a long time talking about the fact that there was something I couldn't talk about. And then she was so nice about that, that I just kind of blurted out, and she's been great.
KC 12:47
I love that, because I feel like there was a lot of people that are seeing a professional and there's something that they're afraid to bring up. And we forget that there are more options than just say nothing or say the thing like there is this like third option of telling your therapist or your doctor, whoever, like, there is something I want to talk about. And I'm so frightened, and like that in and of itself. You can spend a long time processing before you're actually ready.
Speaker 2 13:14
Yeah, I really agree. And that's you can have this something I can't talk about conversation without ending up disclosing as well, that can be really valuable. And I think there's a place for that, because also therapists like this phenomenon, certainly with doctors, where they know that if you kind of get up and you're about to leave, and then say Oh, while I'm here, they tend to know that that's the real reason you're there. And the sore throat or whatever was just a ruse, but you actually need to talk about how depressed you are, or, or whatever it is. And I feel like most therapists would know that even if you're really open, even if your client is really open, there may still be things that are so well compartmentalized that you're not talking about. Yeah,
KC 14:01
we call those doorknob confessions as therapists, right. Like as you're walking out the door, you get your hand on the doorknob. Oh, by the way. Exactly that Yeah. So have there been any techniques that your therapist has helped you with? That has been helpful for hoarding? Yeah,
Speaker 2 14:17
I should also say, I did have some CBT specifically for hoarding prior to this therapist. I didn't want to have it, but I was kind of compelled because of my housing. And I went into it very, very skeptical, but thinking I've got to do this to comply with, you know, what I've been told, and it was actually genuinely really helpful. And so from that, there were a couple of things that I still use, even though this was several years ago. A big one is that we would kind of set a task that I would try and do between sessions so that you know we could See how it went? And I would get immediately anxious as soon as we started talking about it. But what if I can't do it? I don't know how, what if I can't. And the way she always framed it was to see it as an experiment, and just test it out. Just see. And framing, things I was scared of scared of trying, as an experiment was so helpful, because it suddenly it switched from something you either pass or fail into something that if it works, that's great. And if it doesn't work, you just need to adjust things a bit. It's not that you've been useless. And that was so a real shift for me that okay, I don't know if I can take five bags out. But let's see what the experiment shows kind of thing.
KC 15:52
I like that, because it's this idea that however the experiment goes, you're going to have useful information at the end.
Speaker 2 16:01
Totally, even if that information is that technique did no good at all? Will you just know that that's not the one for you, and try something different. Next. The other thing that was really, really helpful that I still use all the time, is, at that point, what I would quite often do if I would set myself a goal, like I'm going to do some tidying in the kitchen. And then I would walk into the kitchen and just go nope, and walk out again. I just couldn't. And what she got me doing was just question that, Nope, just work out what it actually is. And what I learned was that if I just said, Okay, why, you know, and if I could work that out, then suddenly it was like, Okay, that's a overwhelmed. Nope. Okay. Well, I kind of know what to do when I'm overwhelmed. I've got tactics for that. Or if it's a I don't know where to start? Nope, then I can kind of realize that's the issue and start looking at where to start. And just questioning what I felt was, I felt that it was like my brain shutting down. And she made me realize that it wasn't quite that. And that you can ask why. And if you know exactly what's stopping you, it's a lot easier to address that than just if you've got Nope, nothing else,
KC 17:26
like changing the period to a coma completely. And getting curious. Like my favorite. I think the most important thing I ever learned as a therapist was from a therapist mentor that said, like, you just have to get curious.
Speaker 2 17:37
Completely. Yeah, I have a regular guest on the podcast, who is a therapist who works specifically with orders, and she does act acceptance, Commitment Therapy, and she's a big advocate of curiosity. And I think it's similar to the experiment thing. It's kind of let's see what happens if, and it makes whatever you're trying to do less frightening and more intriguing, almost. And then with the current therapist, I think the main, the big thing I get from that is less, it's not a technique, he kind of therapy, but I get a lot more encouragement to give a soft break encouragement to be a bit gentle with myself to stop beating myself up so much. It's that kind of soothing, nurturing, kind of help, which is so appreciated.
KC 18:35
Do you feel like that kind of help ultimately impacts how you are relating to your space? Or how you are relating to the hoarding tendencies?
Speaker 2 18:46
Yes, in the less direct way, from the CBT. But I think something that we talked about when you were a guest on the podcast is that if you're beating yourself up all day, every day, it's really hard to take proactive action on anything. It's really hard to either think you deserve a nice home, or to just get out of bed, because all you've done is beat yourself up.
KC 19:18
And I do think there's also something to be said for, even if it's not impacting, yes, you still deserve to not hate yourself. Even if you still struggle with hoarding.
Speaker 2 19:31
Yeah, absolutely. Even if there are no material changes in your surroundings. Yes, you deserve to feel like you're a decent person.
KC 19:43
So what do you think are some of the common misconceptions that people have about hoarding disorder?
Speaker 2 19:49
I think a big one is that it's about laziness. I think people think you just can't be bothered tidying up or can't be bothered cleaning and done. It was an accusation I used to aim at myself all the time, because I couldn't work out what else it could be. But when I really made myself examine that, I realized a couple of things. One is that if I was lazy, and somebody came around and said, Let me clean this all up for you, I would say yes, please. Whereas, as a hoarder, if somebody said, Let me clean this all up for you, that would evoke absolute panic. I'm not a fan. I haven't watched it for many years. But based on the ones I have seen, I think the positive that can also be a negative is that more people are aware that this is a condition. But beyond that, I find that to make good television to make entertainment, the person whose home it is, has to be rushed and stressed into having a meltdown over a bottle lid or over a torn envelope. And the way it's done is very, it feels very exploitative. And while that all people involved who do seem to have some kind of understanding of hoarding, generally speaking, if a home is cleared, very quickly, and under duress, that is kind of prime, it's laying the groundwork for it to be filled up again really quickly, because whatever caused the problem in the first place, hasn't really been addressed.
KC 21:39
So let me ask you this. If somebody has a friend or a family member that's experiencing hoarding challenges, are there better do's and don'ts for that situation?
Speaker 2 21:50
It's tricky. I think the first thing I have to say is that if you grew up in a hoard, if your parents are hoarders, and you grew up in a hoard, that does your damage that causes trauma, and you are not responsible for fixing your parents, either illness or surroundings. And it's important to say that, because what I see, and there's a great group called children of Hoarders, and they advocate very strongly, what I see if you have a child of somebody with some kind of substance abuse problem, that child isn't generally expected to fix their parents, and indeed, most trauma specialists would advocate that they are not put in that position, then there are definite do's and don'ts. I think the big one is to try and be led by the person. It might be that I expect working with somebody who holds in this kind of way could be an immensely frustrating experience. I've got to tell you this. I know that even though I'm doing a lot better with my decisions and stuff, I know that I drive myself mad. With all the prevaricating I do over certain things. So I can imagine sitting next to somebody and spending 45 minutes trying to make a decision about an empty Coke, Ken would test your patience. And that's, you know, that's so I need to say that it's okay, if that's frustrating. I think if you can go at the person's pace, that's brilliant, and also ask what their priorities are. Because often, a person who's helping might assume a certain priority, like say, somebody can't sleep on their bed because of stuff, somebody was helping my assume that it will obviously want to clear the bed first, because you want you don't want to be sleeping on the sofa. But actually, for that person, they're not bothered at all about the bed, what they want is a clear path to the fridge. And if they've got that goal and that motivation, it's much better for both of you to be working towards that. So I think try to not make assumptions. Be as patient as you can step out, if it gets too much, and try and be led by that person and listen to I don't know where the line is between how much you challenge someone and how much you go with what they want. And that's partly why people like therapists and the professional organizers who work specifically with hoarders where they are very skilled in a way that I am not because there is a line of kind of encouraging someone but not pushing them. And that's a tricky one. But if you can master that then that is incredible. I always call it the de hoarding muscle. You kind of exercise it a bit so that over time, like for me, like nostalgic stuff, that kind of thing I can't deal with, I can't. But I know there's plenty I can be doing in the meantime, by the time there's only nostalgic things left, I will have exercised that muscle so much, that it will be easier. And I can have faith in that. Because there are things that are easier now that weren't easy two years ago. And every bit of doing it, whatever that looks like, helps you move to the next bit of doing it.
KC 25:40
I'm curious if you have a mantra or a saying or like a truth that you repeat to yourself or hold on to in those moments where it's difficult to get rid of something that kind of reminds you that you may be getting rid of something, but actually, it's about what you're gaining? And is there any sort of truism that's helped you get through those moments?
Speaker 2 26:03
Yeah, there's a few, I think, one is that any progress is progress. Even if it feels too small to register on the scale, it all counts, I think one is there are lots of kind of regular objections that come up. And one of them is it will be a waste of money if I get rid of this, and just reminding myself that the money was wasted when I bought it. And that what I do with it now makes no difference to the fact that I wasted the money five years ago, 10 years ago, whenever it was. So I remind myself that I remind myself, I'm making a lot more progress. When I make myself look at what I'm gaining. And I think I resisted that kind of approach for a while because it felt a bit like bit twee a bit, look at the positives, I don't really get along with that kind of thing. But actually, when it's if I can clear those boxes in front of the freezer, then I'll be able to have frozen veg. So I won't have to go to the shop so often because veg goes off. And it will be really nice to always have broccoli rather than only have broccoli, when I've just been to the shop and it's not gone off yet. Or I've not eaten it yet. If I have a kind of this is something I actually want, rather than this being some a chore I'm being forced to do, that helps a lot.
KC 27:37
One of the sayings that I've heard other people say is, you know, when you feel like, you know, hope but this thing is still, you know, to send this thing to the landfill? Oh, you know, I just can't send it to the landfill. And I finally heard someone point out like, you know, it's going to the landfill, no matter what, like whether it spends 30 years in your house first and then goes to the landfill doesn't change the fact it's going to landfill like the only difference is whether or not you have to suffer with it for 30 years.
Speaker 2 28:06
100%. My Location on most of my social media accounts is indoor landfill. And like we again, we talked about this when you were on my podcast that it's not just that me keeping it won't keep it from landfill, which I would say like it's going to landfill whenever it's either going to landfill now or when I die, but then you add it to that with. And the difference then is what are the next 30 years of your life going to be like? So it's not just that it won't keep it from landfill. It's that it won't keep it from landfill. And my life will be immeasurably worse. In the meantime.
KC 28:48
Yeah, like it's going to the landfill no matter what. It's just whether it's going to take you with it
Speaker 2 28:53
yet. So there's all these things that I remind myself of and, and it does help, I found that really long term goals don't do it for me. I tried ages for ages to just think that it should be enough that I knew what I wanted in the end. But I think that felt too big and too far and too impossible. So having a goal, like I really want to be able to use the freezer again, which I can maybe achieve within, you know, within a week or within a month that for me is working a lot better.
KC 29:28
So my last question is, you know, if somebody is listening, and they're relating a little bit, you know, what do you think are maybe some of the early warning signs that someone is sort of passing that threshold from I'm a messy person to hey, this might be moving into the area of hoarding.
Speaker 2 29:48
I think it's less to do with how much stuff is around you, although that is relevant. I think it's more to do with how you feel about the stuff that's around If you if you're imbuing this stuff with almost magical powers, if I get rid of this, then it means I didn't love my mom enough to keep it. Or, if I get rid of this, I will never be able to get another one, my life will change, and it will be awful. Or if I get rid of this, I might regret it for the rest of my life. It's those kinds, it's how you feel about the things you have. And how you feel, either when you try to get rid of it. Or when you think about trying to get rid of it, I had stopped even trying to get rid of things. So when I started doing the CBT, and started really trying to actually make changes, I hadn't even tried for a long time. And it felt like learning to walk almost the real basics. And that was because I guess I'd had a few years of trying and finding it hard and not knowing why and not having the resources to work out why and just shutting down. So if you're having those feelings when you get rid of something, or if you've given up trying to get rid of something, I would look at what those thoughts and feelings are, and see whether and really try and be honest with yourself about whether this might be a problem. And that might be reflected quite severely in your surroundings, or your surroundings might just look a little bit messy. But I would say it's more about what your thoughts and feelings are doing.
KC 31:37
You said when we first began talking, that hoarding for you really isn't about the stuff. It's about the mental anguish that you experience when trying to decide to get rid of something. And as I'm listening to you talk, and I'm thinking about that decision, you kind of referenced this decision point where you decided I'm just it's so much anguish to decide to get rid of something, I'm just not going to decide anymore. Almost as if there was this this place before where you suffered maybe for a long time with getting rid of things and it being really painful and being anguishing and that there was this part, this place where you said, I can't do this anymore. And I think that when we think of hoarding, we often think of the problem beginning when you make the decision to stop getting rid of things, that that's where the problem begins. But that's actually where the problem ended from your experience, right? Like the suffering and the disorder and the like, the actual not getting rid of things is, in some ways peace. It's a solid, it's the solution to what's really going on that you struggled with for so long.
Speaker 2 32:57
Yeah, that resonates.
KC 32:58
I feel like at the public, we get it backwards, like we were looking at the point after you decide is like that's the problem, the disorder is that you decided not to get rid of anything anymore, and you don't care and all these things, but it really seems as though the disorder is the mental. And in the new DSM, you know hoarding disorder is classified as an obsessive compulsive disorder. And it really makes a lot of sense, because that mental anguish, the obsessing, and the compulsion, that's the disorder, and someone who is now accumulating a hoard is someone who maybe just can't struggle like that anymore. Yeah,
Speaker 2 33:38
I think there's a lot of truth to that. I think the kind of tip over point was, I ended a relationship. And it had been a great relationship for a long time, and then terrible for a few months. And I ended it and the ending was horrible, because I wanted to, and she didn't want to, but I did. And it was very stressful. But I also felt a bit like, Oh, phew, there's going to be nobody coming around for a while. And so it was, I think adding to exactly what you've described, was a degree of this is me Reclaiming my space. That really shouldn't help. retrospect. But that I think there was an element of this is all mine. Now this is I can do what I like, you know, that very kind of
KC 34:30
a reassertion of your autonomy. Yeah.
Speaker 2 34:33
And I think that didn't help with a sense that, yes, so the empowering thing to do, is to stop trying.
KC 34:42
It makes a lot of sense. Now, when you said, you know, going in and sort of emptying out and cleaning out someone's hoard really quickly just sets the stage for more because you've taken someone from that place of relief, right, because that'll have to engage in the agony of trying to get rid of something, and just immediately put them back into that place of agony.
Speaker 2 35:05
And if this just was what made them feel safe, sometimes very literally, some people feel like feel like it's almost like a comfort blanket, or whether it made them feel safe because it had memories in it, or whether it made them feel safe for any number of reasons, because it reminds them of when they were a teacher, and they've got all their teaching materials. And add to that, that nearly every person who holds has either profound grief or trauma in their history, if not both, then ripping away that comfort blanket, however well intentioned, and taking away the things that that person felt were familiar and comforting and safe, you can absolutely see why. I don't know if on that show, they still do like the follow up visits six months later, or whatever, why they're quite often full again. And I think that is occasionally a good reason to do a kind of forced clear out. But I think that is very much the exception rather than the rule. And sometimes it's what authorities go straight for when it feels like that will cause added trauma. And you're dealing with a person who is probably already traumatized. And that's why places Philip again. And so I'm not saying first clear outs are never called for. But I think if that happens, it feels almost guaranteed that it won't be a long term solution.
KC 36:43
Well, certainly unless there is substantial support on the back end. It seems like that's just sort of waiting to happen. Well, this has been such a great conversation and I can't thank you enough for your vulnerability and your willingness after a long day at work to come and talk about this with me.
Speaker 2 37:02
Thank you for asking me I really appreciate it.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai