60: Grieving Someone Who Still Lives

Earlier this week, our episode 59, A Grief Observed, featured three people answering the same questions about their personal experience with grief. There was actually a fourth person, Meg Boberg, with very different circumstances, and her story is today’s episode. She shares her experience with “anticipatory grief,” where she grieves a loved one who has not yet passed.

Unfortunately, Meg’s mother has now passed on since we recorded this interview. We extend heartfelt condolences to Meg and her family in this loss, and we sincerely thank her for transparently sharing her and her mother’s poignant story with us. Join us for Meg’s grief story.

 Show Highlights:

●      What is anticipatory grief?

●      Highlights of Meg’s experience with her mother’s terminal cancer diagnosis since 2019, including writing an article about their shared experience

●      How Meg responds to the questions, “What can I do? How can I help?”

●      What people said or did that was helpful in the face of her mom’s terminal diagnosis

●      What people have said or done that was not helpful

●      How close friends have shown up for Meg during her anticipatory grief

●      Why saying something is better than saying nothing at all

●      Why the only thing that is NEVER helpful is to disappear, disengage, and not make any effort with a grieving person

 Resources and Links:

Read the article written by Meg and her mother, Linda: Navigating Preparatory & Anticipatory Grief

Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook

Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes.

• Transcript

  KC 0:05

  Hello you sentient ball of stardust. Welcome to Struggle Care. I'm your host, KC Davis, and welcome to this week's bonus episode. Earlier this week, I ran an episode called A Grief Observed where I interviewed three different people and ask them the same questions about their experience in grief. This bonus episode is interesting because I actually had a fourth person that I interviewed only this person, their loved one had not passed yet. When we did the interview, they talked about something called anticipatory grief. And I asked them the exact same questions, so enjoy the interview. So I have with me now, Meg, Bo Berg, who I spoke to recently because her and her mother actually wrote an article together about anticipatory and preparatory. Those are hard words for me to remember grief. Hi, Meg, thanks for being here.

  Meg Boberg 0:52

  Thanks for having me.

  KC 0:53

  So what is anticipatory grief,

  Meg Boberg 0:57

  other than a hard word to say? Yeah, right. And your grief? Well, first of all, I came across the subject when I was writing for my previous job, I was writing for what was a company that does in home care for elderly, the elderly, home nursing care and such. And I had to pick blog topics for them. So one was that I came up with was, how do I, as an adult child cope with my parents incoming or upcoming death, rather, is? How can I cope with that, and it came from my own experience, because my own mother has a terminal cancer diagnosis. She was diagnosed in the spring of 2019. And so I didn't even know what it was called. I just knew that it was something I was experiencing. So I googled it like grief when someone hasn't died yet. Because it's something that is, it's not conventional grief, or, you know, you can go through the five steps process and then move on to the acceptance. I don't think anyone moves on from grief. But you can do a whole other podcast on that Gacy. But it doesn't Victori grief is grief that occurs before the loss, or during the loss. And you may be grieving several things at once, like, at the same time, watching your loved one as change as they're going moving away from what you knew, and how you knew life as it was when they were their full, vibrant self before their terminal diagnosis.

  KC 2:32

  Yeah, and you know, there's not any rituals, like our culture isn't great with death, but at least we have some rituals for after a person has died. But there really aren't any grief rituals for knowing that a person is terminal, and that they're going to die and processing through that grief.

  Meg Boberg 2:49

  Correct? It does make it quite challenging. I've joined some support groups for children whose parents are upcoming deaths or terminal diagnosis, I should say. And you can lean on them a bit more. Because something we were said we were going to talk about me and Casey's, how do you answer the question? What can I do when people hear you're having a hard time because obviously, I would think most adult children or children, children, anyone whose parent is dying, is having a hard time. So they want to know what they can do. But they can't relate typically, because death is such an uncomfortable topic. Nobody wants to think of their parent or anyone close to them dying. But you know, you only have one mother, you only have one dead. So I typically lean on those who I don't even know them. It's just people online support groups. And they're the ones who I can lean on because they can relate to what it's like to lose someone or they are losing someone. And they don't have the say, quote, unquote, luxury of like, the rituals, like you said, because that's something where you can get closure. Well, there is no closure when you're watching somebody with her way. It's terrible.

  KC 4:02

  So speaking of that question, we're asking everybody, you know, how do you feel about that question? What do you need? Or what can I do? I'm sure that you heard that a lot when your mom got her diagnosis. I have.

  Meg Boberg 4:14

  And if you read the blog that will be linked with this podcast about anticipatory grief. It's my mom has had up and down health for less about 10 years, but she's been diagnosed with our terminal diagnosis for about four years. And it's been a long road. So people do ask that occasionally. And sometimes the cynical part of me, which is a large part of me, is I want to be like, Oh, you're just asking that to fill the air. You know, but I know a lot of people are sincere, and I will tell them, and it took me a while to wrap my brain around. What do I say? Because I'm like, I feel like people do have this notion that they want me to keep trucking because she's not gone. She's still there. Like, Just act normal. All an adult, be an adult, do what you're supposed to go to work to get your paycheck, pay your bills, you know, get everything done. But I feel like when they're asking what can they do, I finally found my answer to that. That helps me. I'm not saying this is universal to everyone going through anticipatory grief. But I say, please let me vent. Because I feel like it helps me get my thoughts out. Because it's all it's on my mind. And left to my own devices. I probably would do what many other Grievers do, which is sit and stew and stare at a wall and dissociate, which I think is unhealthy and just let the water cups on my nightstand pile up. Which is a direct correlation, by the way in between my clinical depression level. And just yeah, what's going on at the moment, it's just, I will sit and stew and bite my nails and just like get frenzied because there's nothing I can do but sit with my thoughts. So I love people ask me questions like how's it going? What's going on? And how did you feel about that? Like, they're not my therapist, obviously. But it's good to have somebody who wants to, like talk through with me, especially if they know my mom, because well therapy is great. She doesn't know my mom. So I talked to my mom sisters, my mom is one of seven sisters. So a five of which are living still. And I talked to my mom's friends I talked to Nancy stored all who wrote and writes the blog, Nancy's point, which the blog is we've been mentioning, and she's a great advocate for breast cancer, women with breast cancer and breast cancer survivors. And I just feel like it helps when people let you speak what's on your mind. Because I know not everyone is comfortable talking about Debbi topics like this. And I respect that I'm sure people see the name of this very podcast like, Oh, I'm gonna hear that one. I was too heavy. But it definitely helps me I listen to tons of podcasts just like this one, because they helped me hear other people's experiences. I'm like, Oh, God, thank God, somebody else, you know, felt bad that they didn't get to go through any rituals, either. You know that. It sounds silly, but it's like, I wish I could have some sort of closure, but there is no closure when they're still living. And it sounds bad too. It's like you I want to have something for me. When she's the one who's suffering, it just sounds bad to me. And I feel guilty and feel ashamed of myself. So it's just compound emotions.

  KC 7:41

  I hear the helpfulness in being able to because even now, it's like talking about what you're experiencing. And even those, like conflicting emotions, helps you process through that what those emotions are and what they feel like. And that's kind of the only thing you have right now. Right? In the absence of those other rituals in the absence of quote, unquote, you know, moving on moving forward. So let me ask you this, when your mom got her diagnosis, and as this, you know, progresses for her, is there anything that people have done or said that was particularly helpful to you?

  Meg Boberg 8:20

  Well, people who have helped even it's surprised me, because I posted something on LinkedIn, for example, on my LinkedIn saying, they're having a hard time, you know, going through family crisis, and hashtag bereavement or hashtag grief or loss. And then, like three people who I barely knew from a previous job reached out to me and they're like, they came with like, five paragraph messages to me on LinkedIn, about how they could relate to what I was going through, because one of them said, Oh, my father recently died, and I was the executor of his will. And we didn't even have a great relationship to begin with. And I have just gotten a new job. And I had a new baby and all this and I was like, wow, it just gave me a whole new perspective on things about how complex grief is and the motions behind it. And it just, it gives you like, fresh perspective on like, you get kind of in your own world and how nobody's problems are as bad as mine are, but it's, it's not true. Other people have different flavors of problems. I mean, it does definitely, like, you get morose and like such saturated and how terrible your grief is, but then you see other people going through different types of grief. You know, that really actually comforted me to read because read his thoughts of when I sent him blogs I've written or other things I've written about grief. And this was just an acquaintance. We'd sent like maybe a couple emails back and forth. And then you saw my posts on LinkedIn. And he pinged me and a couple other people pinging me and they're like, following Is the death doula on LinkedIn? And I was like, what the ever loving F is a death doula, but then I found out then they are like pregnancy doulas, or however you describe that I don't have kids, but they help you navigate the process of someone's death. So it sounds like an incredible service to me. But those were things that actually helped me that were constructive. And another thing was my aunt the other day, one of my mom's younger sisters, She's the eldest of the seven, by the way, asked me, What can I do. And I was like, thinking again, like, I knew she's the kind that likes to be useful. And she's a state away. So I said, Well, you know, something you could do is my dad is your caretaker, and my sister in law, and I will, I need to contribute more, but like to cook for them. So my dad doesn't have to do all the cooking. And I said, you could like, give them a meal, you know, order something, takeout for them, and have it delivered. So that was something that I felt good about having somebody into you, I'm sure felt good about contributing in some way. So just giving back to somebody when they're stressed out. It's not just when somebody's gone, like you need to, you don't need to, but it's helpful to pitch in. And like, because caretakers that can be a whole other podcast for you is the grief that caretakers go through because it is immense, I'm sure, and the burden or not, I don't want to say burden, because that's so such a mean word. But that what caretakers go through, it's incredible to watch them. I watched my grandma, my dad's mom care for my grandfather for a couple years before he died. And it was just incredible to watch because he couldn't take care of himself at all. Like he had something called multiple system atrophy, which is kind of like Lou Gehrig's disease or ALS. And he couldn't feed himself or go to bathroom by himself or groom himself. And she did all that. So now it's like, my mom's loose and all that. But my dad is taking care of my mom. In a lot of ways, though. It's just interesting how that happens. But yeah,

  KC 12:10

  I think it's really cool to hear that people have kind of pinged you on LinkedIn, because like you mentioned, death is a really uncomfortable topic for people. And I can imagine that there are people that are like, Oh, I don't know her that well, I don't know if I should talk and not that everybody would, you know, would experienced that the same way you did. But it's interesting to hear you know, you saying like really talking about it, like having people talk openly about it happening. People talk to you about it, even though you're What is it now four years in? Like, it's still a very present experience and topic in your life?

  Meg Boberg 12:46

  Oh, yeah. And things change all the time, her status, like even on a monthly basis, things continue to evolve. Just I won't get into the nitty gritty, obviously. But it's just always kind of heartbreaking to watch how things progress. And

  KC 13:03

  do you feel like you're witnessing just like 1000s of little deaths over the past few years? Yes. Well, let me ask you this. Is there anything that somebody has done or said that was maybe well meaning, but just particularly not helpful to you?

  Meg Boberg 13:19

  Yeah, just like those people, as mentioned before, my cynical thought of filling the air of I call them the hashtag thoughts and prayers type, just literally,

  KC 13:31

  sorry for laughing, but it's a great, it's a perfect description.

  Meg Boberg 13:35

  It's just the slacktivism throwaway thoughts and prayers. And I did tell that affirmation guy who I talked to on LinkedIn that I thought that about them, and he said, Well, you know, some people just get uncomfortable with death. And they are well, meaning I was like, I get it, but at the same time, I'd rather they just like, you know, figured out something a little more constructive to say, because that's just file that under column, you know, useless, because it does nothing to make me feel better. It just makes me annoyed. Because I'm like, okay, the thoughts are nice, but in the prayers, like, when you're a non theist, it just just grinds my gears. So, it uh, that bothers me. But, uh, we're to come to let's see, I haven't reached the spot yet. But if people were like, she's in a better place, I'd be like, Whoa, you know? Like, I'm laughing because I was just watching an episode of Golden Girls. And Dorothy and her mother, Sophia are like, You know what, 60 and 80 years old, and I was like, they like everyone should be so lucky to have their mother around when they're 60. My dad is 70 and his mom is 97 still kicking still lucid still with us. And I'm like, I won't be 70 with my parents, but I can't keep talking about that or I'll cry. So ask me something.

  KC 15:06

  Well, it's interesting. You know, I think when we think about grief, we typically think almost exclusively about when someone has already died. And as a culture, we're already really uncomfortable with death. So I can't imagine how uncomfortable people are with the idea of this anticipatory grief. And so I'm curious how have some of your like, closer friends reacted? Like, did you have anybody pull away? Did you have anybody really show up for you? Like, how have the people around you kind of been interacting over the past few years, people have

  Meg Boberg 15:39

  been pretty good about it. I mean, I try not to dump on them all the time, just because I know that's too heavy. And also, I don't want to talk about all the time. I mean, there's not like constant updates. I feel like I spread it up between different people. Even my own boyfriend is like incredible sounding board. And I can lean on him. And sometimes I do call him at like, midnight when he's in a dead sleep. And I'm, like, freaking out. I need somebody to talk to. But I'm trying to, you know, use it when I'm really in distress rather than all the time because I know people have boundaries, too, just like I do. And yeah, it's people are pretty good. People check in on me. And I'm trying to utilize the people who check in rather than go to people randomly and be like, can I talk to you about death? Like, I feel like that's like a religious person who walks up to your door and asks you to join the religion. It's just so unwelcoming. Or like, maybe they they have some agenda. And yeah, it's just yeah, I try to know who to talk to and who is probably uncomfortable. Some people also, they may have actually lost a parent, but they don't want to talk about it with me, because it's just too raw still, you know, that's what I'm trying to swim. Glad you said, you're going to talk to other people to get a more well rounded perspective, because I'm sure other some people are listening to this right now and thinking mag me, that's me, or it is way off. She's just like cynical and talking about like, oh, people, thoughts and prayers. People are assholes, like, you know, it's just Everybody's got their own opinion. I'm just one view of Benny. Well, I

  KC 17:17

  think that's important, though, like, one of the reasons I wanted to do this episode, in this way is because I think as a culture, you know, feeling uncomfortable with death, and we see somebody that's had a loss or is going to have a loss. And we want so badly to know what the right thing to do is we want like the script, like what is helpful, what isn't helpful. And the truth is, is like something that one person finds helpful, another person might be annoyed, just like, out of control about like, one person may love, you know, I have family members that say like, please do not bring me food, like, please do not, I hate that. And then other people would say, like, God, sending a meal is the best, like burden you could take off my back. And I think it's really powerful to hear people as individual unique people going through this experience of grief and loss, because at the end of the day, you know, us wanting the right thing to say is really about us and our discomfort. And I think what we're called to do when the people around us are mourning is just engage in this human messy human experience knowing like, I might not do it, right. I might not do exactly what you said. And I might say thoughts and prayers, and you get annoyed with me. And that's okay.

  Meg Boberg 18:31

  Yeah, I don't blow up with those people. I just gotta roll my eyes and turtle and I'm like,

  KC 18:37

  you know, and you get to have that experience. And it's not about me, you know what I mean? I don't have to worry that much about, you know, Oh, it wasn't exactly what she wanted to hear, like, you just I think,

  Meg Boberg 18:49

  I think saying something at all is better than saying nothing. Because some people say nothing. Like my mom, I know herself has had some people who are good friends who have just sort of withered away, like gone off the like, out of her life, because I think it's too hard to deal with watching a former BFF go through something so like dressing as cancer. I mean, it's hard. But that's pretty crappy to be like, Oh, I'm just gonna step back or step away completely, because what you're going through is too much for me.

  KC 19:25

  And I think that's been the only like, consistent answer between everyone that I've talked to is the only thing that is definitely not helpful, is just disappearing. If it's someone you have a relationship with, right? Like, just being so uncomfortable, or so worried that you're gonna get it wrong, that you just don't engage at all.

  Meg Boberg 19:46

  Yeah, ever does about like, I can bring up other topics that are unrelated to grief. Like for somebody like a friend who was transitioning, you know, from one gender to another, and like, people are like, Oh, good. Talk to them. because that's awkward and new name and what the hell, like, if I were to get married and change my name, nobody would be like, Oh, that's too awkward can't call you by your new maiden name anymore. It's like, just get hip with it, deal with it, and just make the effort. I'm sure they're not gonna freak out at you, if you accidentally dropped the wrong name. Just apologize and move on. And, you know, make the effort. Effort is always appreciated, even for me make the messy human effort Yeah, make the most of human effort. That's a perfect way to put it.

  KC 20:33

  Well, Meg, thank you so much. This has been a really insightful and helpful contribution to this conversation. And I wish you and your mother peace in over the next few months and years, you know, in whatever way that you can grab at it.

  Meg Boberg 20:49

  Thank you. Absolutely. Thank

  KC 20:51

  you. And we'll link that article that we mentioned down in the show notes if you guys want to check that out. I also noticed in the article that there were some worksheets that you and your mother had filled out to help process through some of those things. And so there's some cool resources on that blog. You guys could check it out. Thanks, Meg. Thank you

  Transcribed by https://otter.ai