Going Back To School as an (ADHD) Adult
Returning to school as a neurodivergent adult brings unique challenges, and we are discussing all aspects of this topic in today’s episode. I’m joined by “The Neuro-Spicy Student,” Amber, to share her experience and perspective on this topic. Join us!
Show Highlights:
Amber’s “alphabet soup” of diagnoses, misdiagnoses, and disabilities
Amber’s childhood experience in school
Two sides of the coin for most neurodivergent students
Amber’s story of multiple attempts at college and (finally) earning multiple degrees
Internal barriers in returning to school as an adult
A common experience for adults with ADHD: Learning and learning and learning—without formal degrees to show for it
Differences in going to school as an older student with accommodations
Finding empowerment in advocating for yourself–and healing your younger self
Specific accommodations you can ask for in college
Amber’s parting words for listeners considering a return to school
Resources and Links:
Connect with Amber: LinkedIn
Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook
Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning
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KC Davis 0:00
Hello you sentient balls of stardust. Welcome to struggle. Care. I'm your host, KC Davis, and today we're going to be talking with the neuro spicy student. I have Amber here with me in the studio, and we're going to talk about going back to school as a neurodivergent adult. Amber. Thank you so much for being here.
Amber Anthony 0:21
Thank you for allowing me to be here.
KC Davis 0:24
So tell me what your alphabet soup is of diagnoses.
Amber Anthony 0:29
That's a long list. We do have ADHD that one is formally diagnosed, and then we have the self diagnosis for autism, but I have been misdiagnosed with borderline personality disorder, which I feel like that is something that a lot of other Audi HD ers have in common, and I've also been diagnosed with bipolar type two. Believe that one is also a misdiagnosis. I do agree with the OCD diagnosis, because that's pretty on par for some of my struggles, but I also do have a couple of physical disabilities, hot Postural Orthostatic Tachycardia Syndrome, ethos Danlos Syndrome, the hypermobility. I think that is something that is very much shared amongst neurodivergent folks, that just something that we all sort of have in common, that those are some struggles we all go through, and they very much impact being able to go to school, stay in school, and find success in school throughout all like from the youngest years to back to college. So
KC Davis 1:36
what was your experience in school like as a child? Rough,
Amber Anthony 1:40
very, very rough. There was a lot of hyper variability as a little kid. I mean, I spoke in complete sentences by the time that I was about 1618, months talking about that I was going to be rich and famous one day. That was my big goal as an 18 month old. But I definitely found a lot of struggle with math. In particular, I am dysgraphic as well as dyscalculia. So any kind of math, it's just going to create so much anxiety, so much stress. And there has been exactly one teacher out there, Mr. Jim Roman, shout out to my grandpa. He's not my actual grandpa, but he is, after this many years, he is the only person that sat down with me and got me to understand algebra two, which no other person has ever been able to have him since, but that man, he's a real teacher, because he actually cares. So I had to shout him
KC Davis 2:40
out. I feel like it's super common for people, whether they had a diagnosis or they weren't diagnosed till later, like to have really adverse experiences in school because of neurodivergence, whether it's a learning disability or ADHD or autism. Like it's just so common for us to have these early experiences, and it's kind of two sides of the same coin. But like, there's kind of, like the group of people that, because of some executive functioning stuff, some attention stuff, like we, at an early age, just kind of conclude that we must be stupid, and then like, the other side of the coin are those of us who maybe trend towards, like, what was considered gifted, and so all of our issues were kind of like fell through the cracks until it was too late, right? And it was like, Oh, they're smart. Who cares if they can't ever do their homework or ever stay organized, or ever whatever. And we get to a certain level of school where we just absolutely crash out, because it becomes obvious that these skills that we weren't building along the way are not there.
Amber Anthony 3:40
That was college for me. Which of those categories did
KC Davis 3:44
you fall into?
Amber Anthony 3:45
That was absolutely college. I mean, I very much struggled in elementary school, but it was internal struggle. It was very much she's a delight to have in class, a little chatty, but she's so smart, she's so precocious. She has this great vocabulary words that you know, kids her age just don't know and are reading, you know level that's up in high school and college level when I'm still in elementary and I mean, I had decent, well, no, I didn't get good grades, really, until about middle school, because that's when it counted. I was supposed to go to a very prestigious, all girls Catholic high school that gets you ready for college. And I was also supposed to be a legacy student that did not work out. One might say that those nuns at the school did not like my mother after the six years that they are no eight years they had already had her at that point. So they're like, We can't do this anymore, guys, I cannot do this again. And they only had three years because my sister and I would have actually been at the same time. Oh
KC Davis 4:47
my gosh. But so did you finish undergrad?
Amber Anthony 4:50
I have actually finished four associates at this point, but that is my second attempt of college, my first attempt of college. Was actually three weeks after I graduated high school, I went to summer school and started online classes before never completing any other sort of summer before college. And that did not work out. Schedules did not work out. I had just turned 18. I had no time management skills. And I am a youngest child, yeah,
KC Davis 5:23
yeah, my crash out was in high school, and I actually funny. You should mention, I actually went to a private all girls Catholic prep school, and I was there the first year, and and then I got expelled my second year. And you know, my grades went from like A's and B's to like when I in the eighth grade, to like D's and F's, and I didn't change. I didn't do anything different. I just, all of a sudden the homework mattered, and they weren't going over everything in class. There was like, stuff that you were supposed to be doing on your own, and it became obvious I didn't have those skills. And I mean, I was like, Well, I guess I can't do school anymore, right? And I feel like that is so common with people who are neurodivergent, like, just realize we have such a bad experience with school that we start hating and I hated school. It's weird, like, I loved aspects of school when it came to learning and socializing and things like that, but I hated the grading part. Yes, I learned. I
Amber Anthony 6:30
always said that I love learning. Don't grade me. I hate
KC Davis 6:34
grading unless it's gonna be like you teach me something and immediately ask me to talk about it, because then I'll get good grades. But don't ask me to go home and structure shit by myself. By myself. So how long was it before you decided to go back to school?
Amber Anthony 6:48
It was a little bit back and forth a few different times. So from age 18 until 20, I went pretty consistently, but that's also when some of my physical issues really started amping up. I got mono for like eight months when I was 18 years old, and that just wrecked my health. I got my tonsils removed. I missed a bunch of class because the professors were asking me to leave because I looked like I was dying in class and like I don't want a lawsuit on my hands. If you die in my class, get out. So I missed a bunch of stuff. I had to drop a bunch of courses, and it did not work out the first time around, I started again at 24 I tried for a semester, and I just, I took random classes. I take gerontology, for some reason, that is the study of aging, the psychology of aging. Oh, interesting. And like geriatrics, okay, yes, yes. So of the elderly people do I have any interest in elderly care? No, no, I don't
KC Davis 8:00
that sounds like me. People are always like, Oh my God, how many degrees do you have? And I'm like, Oh no, I only have two. But I changed my major 1000 times and took a bunch of coursework that didn't even relate to my major, and like, years worth of coursework to not end in a degree.
Amber Anthony 8:17
Ask me my first major. What was your first major? Mortuary science.
KC Davis 8:22
Oh, mine was philosophy that lasted a semester. What was your second major?
Amber Anthony 8:26
I went to English, which actually is now my one of my current majors, one of I'm a double
KC Davis 8:33
I went to meteorology as someone who was also dyscalculic. For some reason I thought meteorology would work because I could chase tornadoes, but then there was so much math that I switched to theater. Oh,
Amber Anthony 8:44
I did, taken a few theater classes. I was definitely a theater kid, especially because, you know, I'm rather I'm rather theatrical.
KC Davis 8:55
So when you made the decision to go back, or like all the times you've made the decision, what kind of internal barriers did you have to get over or like did you have to process or, or or deal with? Because I feel like when we have these bad experiences in school, and then we get older and we perceive ourselves as being like outside the age group that like should be in school, there's a lot of internal like barriers and almost like stigma and trauma to like work through. So like, what did that look like for you?
Amber Anthony 9:27
I had to do it for me, instead of who I was trying to please, which was very much, I mean, very familial. My oldest sister is a polyglot times six, so there's that she has either one or two masters at this point, she has traveled the world so that there's living up to that my middle sister is a pastry chef. She went to the Culinary Institute of America, and she is a very accomplished mother and pastry chef. And. And very successful in that, as well as my other sister, very accomplished mother. She is fantastic. So going back for myself and not having to live up to familial standards, and deciding that I just want to do this for me as well as the people I want to help, because that's really what brought me back. I know that to be a librarian and to be a social worker, I have to have those degrees to get into those buildings and to fill those gaps, because that's what I want to do. That's who I want to be.
KC Davis 10:36
I feel like that is such a powerful point to speak to, because there is this feeling, you know, and I the audience knows that I had a pretty bad drug addiction when I was in my teens, and so when I came out of rehab, you know, I was a senior in high school, and I went to, like, a special high school with a contained class, and you know, then I went to community college for my first year, and there was kind of that feeling of like I've been left behind, like I'm not going and doing what everyone else is doing. And I remember like waiting tables to put myself through grad school. And I waited tables in kind of like a rich part of town, and there was, like more than one occasion where I would end up waiting on the mothers of, like former classmates that I'd gone to prep school with and I remember feeling so ashamed, even though, like, I know intellectually, there's nothing shameful about waiting tables. And I was literally waiting tables to put myself through a really rigorous graduate degree. And yet, the pressure and the feeling of, I really want to tell them, I'm getting a degree too. I'm getting a degree too, because, and I think that can get muddied, like, there probably are some of us out there that, like, we feel like we should go back to school to finish that degree, but it's mostly being pushed by just like the societal standard, like, I'll be more worthy, I'll be more respected. And I think your point to having to realize that, like, that's not motivation that's going to carry long term. Like, there really has to be a personal motivation. Of it doesn't matter what anybody thinks. It doesn't matter how old I am. It doesn't matter like, all those kinds of things. Like, I have to do it because at the end of this road is something that I want for me in my life. Yes, so 100%
Amber Anthony 12:26
yes. Just have seen the amount of people out there that are not spoken for and that are suffering because they have no one to speak for them, whether it is because of being a marginalized human or just not being able to advocate for themselves. And I just, I can't let it keep going on. I can't be participating in a system that does not work for all humans. Yeah,
KC Davis 12:56
did you struggle at all with like? Because I know for a time I was thinking about, like, doing more schooling, and one of the things that I struggled with was, like, doing the math of how old I was gonna be by the time I graduated. Yeah, yeah. Did you struggle with that at all? Oh, no. 100%
Amber Anthony 13:14
I did that math. And like, how did you get through that? So by the end of this, I will be between 36 and 37 at the end of all of this, granted, I would have been, I think, 35 if I had stopped adding so many things to the plate.
KC Davis 13:30
That's the ADHD tax, though, but that's part of it. Is like you feel like, No, I've lived 1000 lives. I really am very knowledgeable, I really am very competent, but I've learned so many things, but I have no degrees to my name. For 75% of it,
Amber Anthony 13:44
that is the worst part of my schooling, everything that I have learned up until this point that I've gotten all my degrees, I have early childhood education associates, I have social science associates, I have a library science associates, I have an English Associates, and I'm working on a social work transfer associate. And I also have five different certificates in early childhood education, being a specialist in disabled students and infants and toddlers. Yeah, of course. Because why wouldn't I?
KC Davis 14:10
I feel like the most powerful thing I heard someone say was they were talking to somebody who said, Well, you know, well, you know, if I go back to school now, I'll be 40 when I finish. And they said, You know what the time will pass.
Amber Anthony 14:23
Anyways, it will and if you do it until you retire, which they keep trying to hike that age up, you could do it for 20 years. You start at 40, you have 20 years of doing a profession that fulfills you, that you love and that God willing, helps people.
KC Davis 14:43
And like, this idea of like, oh, but in four years, I'll be 42 and it's like, yeah, no, but like, I'll be 42 in four years no matter what, even if I don't go back to school, right? Like, the time will pass anyways, no matter exactly. And so like, yes, it's gonna take a long time. But again, that long time is going to happen no matter what. It's just like, we may or may not have a degree at the end of it,
Amber Anthony 15:05
exactly. So
KC Davis 15:06
tell me then, like, let's shift to like, what has been different this time about going back to school? You mentioned before we hopped on like that you've been dealing with accommodations, and I feel like that's a big one for people who are late diagnosed. Like, part of our adverse experiences in school is that we had not been diagnosed or recognized and we didn't have accommodations at those times. And so what has it been like to go back to school and this time advocate for accommodations?
Amber Anthony 15:32
I would say that being older, I just feel like I have more of a voice. For some reason, when you get right out of high school, everyone is telling you what to do, where to go, how to be. And I'm also a military kid. Twice over, I was raised by two sailors, so I say I have a filthy fucking mouth because and my dad's from Jersey, so that should explain a myriad of it.
KC Davis 15:58
Well, yeah, out of high school, you still feel a little bit like a child. And so professors are these, like, far away experts. They're the real adults. And I would imagine, like, going back to school in your, like, late 20s or your 30s, you kind of see a professor as a peer. It's like, I'm older than another adult, yeah? Like, I'm paying you for a service, yeah, 100
Amber Anthony 16:21
No, I have very much been like, Ah, no. Like, I want us to be respectful, but you are going to, like, hear what I have to say, and I'm gonna talk a lot, and you will keep listening, or I'll go to the dean, because I have, and he heard me talk a lot too. And
KC Davis 16:38
so what has that process been like? Have you hit bumps in the road? Have you found successes because of accommodations that you you know didn't get in other situations or other tries? I
Amber Anthony 16:50
am still currently in a fight with the Los Rios Sacramento college, community colleges, specifically Folsom Lake, they say a lot of nice words, and they make things look really, really nice. Put a beautiful little bow on it and tell you really nice things. But when it comes down to actually enacting those accommodations and getting professors who are tenured and have been there a very long time and might have a very specific world view. They don't always want to be on your side. They don't want to, I have said multiple times to DSPs officers, the director of DSPs and also the dean of literature, that the rounded curve helps all people. So why are we making specific accommodations for, you know, just one student here, one student there. Why can't we make an accessible class overall? Here's how we can do that. No, we just need to go straight to accessibility for just the student, just specific students make their accommodations. Because if we make accommodations for everyone. It makes it too easy. If it's accessible to everyone, easier to learn, that sounds like a good thing, doesn't it for everyone to learn a little easier and not have to struggle.
KC Davis 18:16
Do you think that process? Because although it sounds like a headache, it sounds like it could be very frustrating, and even it seems like it could feel very defeating. But has there been an aspect of it that has been empowering to you, to have this almost it's not practice. I mean, it's real life, but I mean to like really go in and advocate hard for yourself, even if it doesn't always end fairly
Amber Anthony 18:42
I have always said I would rather it be me than some kids straight out of high school who does not know the things to say as well as have the background, sort of be able to back them up and say, No, I actually do know what I'm talking about here, and this is what's right and you aren't following Through with everything that you told me you would follow through with and keeping other people accountable for what they're saying, that they're going to do and how they're going to help. And I do feel powerful from that. Do
KC Davis 19:11
you feel like, I mean, I'm also curious if any of that has been healing, like to your own inner child, like, I think we all remember being whether we were young children or, you know, I had moments in grad school that I look back and I think, like, God, I wish. I wish somebody would have advocated for me, because I didn't even know to advocate for myself. And I could just see that being like a very corrective emotional experience. It
Amber Anthony 19:34
has been really nice to be able to, even when it doesn't work out, just know that I have said what I need to say, and they know that I'm not backing down, because I keep going to the next step, and I know how to bring it to the next step. And another shout out to Dr Douglas, see if you miss she works with it, creators on Tik Tok. Also, she has been a fantastic. Person that I have communicated with on several different times, that she has helped me sort of navigate some of what I have not known how to get through the administration and but of the red tape where some of my rights I still did not know how to advocate for, but I did know who to look for to find out what I needed to do, instead of just being like, well, I guess I'll just try again later, or I guess I'm the wrong one. But no, I am allowed to
KC Davis 20:27
have this. And you know, even though I haven't had that experience in school, and I don't like have a boss like, but I do, like, run a business, and I do have business partnerships and contracts and things like that. And I find that even in that world, like I have done some things recently that have been like, about accessibility for me, and it's funny how you'll do it and then you'll be like, Why haven't I done this before? Why haven't I asked for this before? And there was this weird subconscious, like, you didn't, it's not, not that you didn't need it, but almost like, well, it's supposed to be hard. You're not, like, it's not supposed to be too easy. Like, the one I did recently is like, when I do brand deals, and I don't do a ton of them, but what typically happens is, like, whatever, like, nice person working in the marketing department is usually not like, the top of the food chain, right? And so they're sending an email of, like, hey, we would love to have you do some stuff for us. You're like, Okay, what? And they're like, Well, we have this product, and we would love for you to do one Tiktok reel, and also a story, at least three pains in the story, 15 seconds each. And we, you know, here are the three talking points, and here's the call to action. You have to say it verbally, but make sure you don't say these words here. Can you have this to us by next Tuesday, and then we can post on Thursday, but make sure you send it in, and it's like, so many details, and those details will often come in spread over multiple emails. So like, there's the initial email of, like, here's what we're looking for. You'll be like, Yeah, let's do it. And then you'll start to get a bunch of other details filtered in. And then sometimes you'll also get like, Okay. And then here's the brief, and but the brief will be written generally for, like, all influencer stuff, and so you have to go in and figure out which ones are yours. And, like, it's so funny, because you guys can't see Amber, but she's, like, visibly hyperventilating thinking about it. It really is that stressful. I
Amber Anthony 22:13
can see, like, just how many directions you would have to be pulled in to try and I'm just like, this is working in the infant room at my school, yes, and
KC Davis 22:21
it almost reminded me also of like having a syllabus, but worse, right? And so what I did recently was I was like, You know what like? Because there's things that, like you have to say to get it right, but it's like, wasn't all written in the same place. So I went in and made myself a Google form that basically said, like, check which, like, which of these contents. Are you wanting? Are you wanting? Tik, Tok, this, whatever the next one was like, what are the talking points? Copy and paste them. When is the due date? The due date must be at least 14 days after I received this form for a proof like, when do you want the draft? Okay, after you get the draft, when do you want it posted? That date must be four business days from approval, including re like, I had to spell it out right, and then it had to be like, you know, now, put the call to action verbatim in this line. And I think what feels weird is that you're basically asking people to do more work. And you think, well, there it's my job to do all of that work, but, like, I literally have a disability, like, I need information in a specific, you know, format in order for me to do the job you have hired me for. And it's weird, because you're like, This is so simple, like, this is so much easier. Now this is so much more. This is literally accessible now, and you're like, why didn't I ask for this before?
Amber Anthony 23:46
Because you don't want to be a burden. Because society teaches us we are all just burdens when we need something, especially if we are female, identifying, it's just ingrained into us.
KC Davis 23:59
So what are some of the specific accommodations that you have? Because one of the things that I know is that a lot of people, who they totally get the idea of accommodations, but they don't know what to ask for. And it's not like the school gives you a list of options.
Amber Anthony 24:12
Oh no, they will not give you a specific list, because they have to be specific to your disability. But you also have to prove why you deserve them, like how you will actually be using them, and why it won't give you an unfair disadvantage over everyone else, which is something that I have very much come into contact with. Of them not wanting to allow for my accommodations, one of which being, I am not allowed to use the accommodation of Grammarly go because there is an AI aspect to it. And unfortunately, there are a fair amount of colleges out there that still use Turnitin, which is a faulty also AI to. Tracking system to see if you are using AI to write your papers. I understand why they are using it, but I think there just needs to be a little bit more critical thinking on the people grading stuff. Part. You can tell AI writing like very different. It's very dry, it's all the same. It all comes out very much sounding the same, and it has no voice to it. So that's something I'm not allowed to use. The reason I was using it, I have a very difficult time, especially in writing, to be able to figure out what kind of tone I'm using. And Grammarly go allows you to figure out is this coming off impassioned or combative, because more often than not, when I am fired up and really excited about something, people are like, Girl, drink water. Calm down. Why are you mad? I'm like, I'm not I'm just excited. I'm very excited. So there's always been confusion there, and I tried to use that as a way to mitigate that. And unfortunately, that was not an accommodation that I was allowed to use. There are professors that, thankfully, I do talk to them, they allow me to use it. They understand why I'm using it, and I also keep a lot of notes to show them exactly how I am writing my papers, to show that I am not cheating. And unfortunately, that's another thing that I have to burden on myself to show that I'm using accommodations properly and I don't have an unfair advantage over everybody else. So
KC Davis 26:31
what are some of the accommodations that you do have that work? Well, I'd like to give people ideas about what they can ask for. Oh yes,
Amber Anthony 26:37
I would say double time would be great. Double time for tests and quizzes. That's great also when professors let you do it, because sometimes they'll say you don't need that. You do fine without it, but sitting preferential seating, so either sitting close in front, or if you prefer to be in the back of the class, so that you're able to see the full board, or being able to take frequent breaks, standing up in the classroom, fully, leaving the classroom for a few minutes being if you have the in person classes, not having to have your camera on for a zoom. Course, because being perceived is very difficult on some days, I found that a very, very helpful one. This is very much up to professors, but I have up to the discretion of the professor an allowance to have late work within a certain time frame, just because deadlines can get very difficult, especially once you add in the physical disabilities with I also do have chronic migraines. I forgot to mention that one, those are fun, so those throw things off
KC Davis 27:40
a lot. That's probably like the number one thing I wish that I would have had. And for me, it wasn't even about like I was procrastinating or I got sick, like it was truly that, like I looked at the syllabus 1000 times, and I literally saw a 15 when it was a five, like it's due on the fifth, and my brain saw a 15, and every time I looked at it, I just couldn't see something different, like the amount of like hits that I took to grades when I was, like, fully working hard on something and managing my time and doing all like and I just screwed up the dates and and I would have some professors that were chill about it because they knew me, and they were like, I don't think she's like bullshitting, but I had others that just would not budge. And I also think, like when I was younger, I really wish I would have had an accommodation about writing down what the homework was. I don't know why that was so difficult. What got lost in translation. Every day I would look at the board, and they'd be like, homework is this? And I'd be like, cool, I'll remember that. And then I didn't, and I'm like, 12, so like, every day I'm not doing my homework, and I just, man, I wish that the teacher would have just written it in my planner, and then when I went home, my mom would have opened up my planner with me and shown it to me. I think that that would have solved all of my problems.
Amber Anthony 29:00
They did that for me, really, gosh, you're so that was what they did that my school, once I got to it was actually a public school instead of a private school. In elementary I did not have to ask for accommodations. They just saw who I was, and they accommodated me. They were like, Oh, she seems to struggle with focus, so let's keep her towards the front of the class. This person seems to be her friend, so we're not going to put her next to her, because she's going to talk to her. Yeah, I also had times where I didn't even know I was receiving extra help. That's how good they were. I was being taken out of the classroom to a separate place, and they were giving me, like a tutoring during school hours. I had no idea that they were helping me, because I was just like, Oh, I'm going to my little school thing. And everyone does this, right? No, they don't. They were just helping me because that's what I needed. My mom never even. Had to sign me up for it. It was fantastic. They just saw me and accommodated me. That's
KC Davis 30:06
amazing. Well, Amber, I really appreciate just kind of hearing your first person experience. And then I'm curious if you have any kind of like parting words for listeners at home that maybe have been considering going back to school and whether or not they should do that. And the fears that they have around that, you know, what would you say to someone who's considering it?
Amber Anthony 30:24
I'd say, jump in. Just jump in. It is not a sit around and think about it and go back and forth and make a pro. I mean, if you're a pro and conless person, do it. But, I mean, I think it's going to come out in the favor of jump in. Do it, because if you find out that's not what you like, change your major again. It doesn't matter. Just find something that you love, and if at the end of it, you're like, you know what? School wasn't it, but you make a bunch of friends, you make contacts, you network. Something can still come out of it, even if it's not a degree. Something really beautiful can happen when you just decide to be part of more than what you are right now.
KC Davis 31:04
Yeah, that's great. Well, Amber, thank you so much, and we'll throw some helpful links into the show notes for anybody that wants to look up stuff about accommodations. And I hope you guys all have a great day.
Amber Anthony 31:16
Thank you. Thank you so much.