91: When Kinky Sex is the Healthier Option with Sunny Megatron

Please be advised that today’s episode is adult content; it’s not safe for work or little ears. We are talking all things kink with Sunny Megatron, a clinical sexologist, kink educator, and consultant. Join us for an interesting and informative conversation!

Show Highlights:

  • Understanding what kink really is—and how it measures up to the assumptions we have

  • The difference between kink and a fetish

  • Sunny explains “kink done well” and “kink done wrong”

  • The concept of “aftercare” in kink

  • Societal messages around sex that lead to shame, embarrassment, and an overall lack of open communication

  • We don’t understand our sexual motivations.

  • Stigma busting around sexual assault, trauma, and fantasy

  • Red flags to look for in sexual power dynamics

  • The slippery slope of fear (of what kink may lead to)

  • Problems in kink relationships are the SAME problems in “vanilla sex” relationships! 

Resources and Links:

Connect with Sunny Megatron: Website, TikTok, and Instagram 

Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook

Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes.

  • KC 0:00

    Hey hello sentient balls of Stardust and welcome to struggle care where we're going to talk about all things mental health and wellness and just life in general. And today's episode is not safe for work, and probably not safe for minor little years. Because today we're going to be talking about kink. And stick around, because it's going to be an interesting conversation. I'm here with Sonny Megatron. She's a clinical sexologist, she's a kink educator, and consultant. And Sandy, I'm so excited to get into this conversation.

    Sunny 0:37

    I am to this is my passion, my geek out spot. And I love talking to you. So we've covered all the bases. Let's do it.

    KC 0:46

    So I want to start with just this question of why is it that when we think of the term kink, it feels like we're referring to something dirty and perverse, and like maybe morally questionable. Like, that's kind of like my knee jerk reaction, if I just sort of think about like a societal, whatever. And when I came across your content, not that I ever had, like shame for people that like we're into kink, but when I came across your content was one of the first times I heard someone talking about kink in such a way where I began to think, I don't know, some of that sounds more healthy than the way the rest of society is doing sex.

    So can you give us like a definition? And then talk about like that, maybe that assumption about kink? Okay.

    Sunny 1:41

    Okay. Yeah, there is a whole lot there. And I do want to give a caveat that when we're talking about kink, especially the kink that sounds a whole lot healthier than vanilla stuff, we're talking about kink done. Well, the way we quote should be doing it, do we see it manifest that way? In real life situations? Not always, frequently? Not always. So just want to throw that out there. So kink the technical definition of kink is anything that turns you on that falls outside of the, quote, sexual norm? And when we look at okay, well, what is the sexual norm? That's really subjective based on the culture, you're in the social group you're in, you know, gave the warning that this is not safe for work. So for some folks, a blow job is super kinky. And for other people, it's like, I do that all the time. That's nothing that's just sex, right? So kink covers a lot of vast things. And when we hear kink on social media, we generally tend to equate kink with BDSM, bondage and discipline, domination, submission, sadomasochism.

    KC 2:54

    Okay, and what is the difference between kink and fetish? Okay,

    Sunny 2:58

    so kink is anything that falls outside of sexual norm a fetish is something that turns you on sexually that isn't normally a sexual thing. So we hear a feet fetish, you know, we don't normally associate that part of the body. It could be latex, it could be upholstered chairs. I mean, really, a fetish can be anything. And I also want to give one other caveat that I think is important for listeners of this conversation, especially ones that are new to kink. When I say sexually turns you on, that's kind of a misnomer a little bit. For some people. Yes, it's a sexual turned on. I call that the pants tangles. But for a lot of us a big part of the draw and not just kinky things. But sex in general, is the brain tangles. And sometimes we can just be after those brain tangles. So when I say sexually, it encompasses a lot.

    KC 3:55

    Oh, my gosh, so my head's going in so many directions right now. Especially around like when people talk about like enthusiastic consent and pleasure. And anyways, but that's a whole different podcast. So here's my question, right? What? Like, what do you when you talk about like, kink done? Well, and kink done wrong? Talk about that for a second. Like, what are some things that maybe people have seen out in the wild? That you would consider like, kink done? Not well. Okay.

    Sunny 4:24

    And I love to give comparisons. So as you're grokking this and thinking about it, think about a romantic relationship done well, and not done? Well, we know what those two things look like. So when we're talking about kink, not done well, we don't have full consent of our partner and that goes a lot deeper than just like, can I touch you here? Yes, no, we may have some sort of ulterior motive or manipulation to get what we want and disregard what their desires or boundaries are. We may have a fundamental misunderstanding thing of what kink is or what domination and submission is. So, we may be taking that play acting of oppressive power, like Get on your knees and write about it. and translating that back into the real default world. Or we might be using that to reinforce real damaging traumatizing power dynamics that exist outside in that real world, you know, as humans, and I know, you know, this, and I know the listeners know this too, maybe on paper, and then textbooks, we know like what we should this we should, you know, healthy relationship looks like XYZ. But put us in that situation with all of our messy humaneness, and we screw that up all the time. And kink is no different than any other human relationship or human interaction. But with kink, we've got the stigma that's attached to it. We've got people out there thinking, Oh, kinky, people are reckless and out of control abusers, and they do drugs, and they step on kittens, and you know, all of this ridiculous stuff, right? So not only do we not have good role modeling just for our general vanilla relationships, whether that be romantic or familiar, or friends or whatever, we really don't have good modeling for kink, and then all that stigma gets in the way as well. Yeah,

    KC 6:32

    one of the things that I've heard you talk about on your channel before is a couple of different things. It's kind of like you've talked about consent. And you've also talked about, like aftercare, and I never heard the term aftercare before. And people were talking about, you know, when you're done having a sexual encounter, or a kink scene, what do you do afterwards to feel good about what just happened? Or to kind of get closure or to like, come back around and do some, like soothing or repair, like, there's just so many ways people talked about it, and the only thing I could think was like, that's like, isn't that what everyone wants after every sexual encounter? And yet, like in what we call kind of vanilla sex, or just kind of run of the mill, like, how many of us complain about not being cuddled afterwards, or not feeling loved afterwards, or not being tended to afterwards and feeling a little empty, feeling a little raw. And so that was the first time that was like, Oh, shit, like, that sounds healthier than what people talk about as like, normal, healthy sex.

    Sunny 7:33

    Yeah. And, you know, with humans, when you boil us down to our lowest common emotional denominators, and our needs and what we want and what we fear, and all of those things, they're the same. We just happen to be playing in an erotic way, a little bit differently. But really, when you boil it down, we are no different vanilla kinky. excetera. So you know, just like when in vanilla sex, right, let's say after, let's say you had one of those encounters, right? That you're like, This is sex. I'm gonna remember for the rest of my life. This was amazing. I didn't know orgasms could be that good. And I did some things who I did some real dirty things. And I'm kind of I can't believe I acted that way. I can't believe I called you those things or did those things. And even though it was great afterwards, I might feel like, holy shit. What does this mean about me? Am I like a weirdo? Pervert? Do you think I'm a weirdo? Pervert? Should I be embarrassed right now? Does this change our relationship? Like, whoa, how do I feel about everything? And so one of the things that aftercare can do is give you that reassurance that even though you went to this uninhibited place where you did some wacky stuff and tapped into a part of yourself that maybe you didn't even know you had, that your partner still loves you that it's okay, that that doesn't suddenly make you you know, a whore or a slot or a terrible person and being a quote, horror and slept. There's nothing wrong with that, but we attach a lot of baggage, you know, to those concepts. So aftercare can do that. When we are playing with kink, or even that really hot sex that gets you know, physiologically, all of our our neurotransmitters and our dopamine and all of the things going we get that that chemical cocktail natural high, we go to a altered state of consciousness really, and coming down from that can be really difficult. So again, let's equate that to a vanilla situation. Maybe you went on a fun weekend with your friends and did some like wacky stuff, had a great vacation, had some very new experiences. And now it's Monday and you have to go back to work and go back to your real life. And you experience that drop. You know, it may come out as like a depression, a tiredness, just an overall funk. After care can help with that type of thing as well,

    KC 10:17

    when I think about the things that people like we all experience or that people talk about, you know, and they're not talking about kink, but even like, there's sort of that joke or sort of like running commentary about, like, you know, mostly I hear men talk about like, Okay, you're watching porn, and you're really into it, and you have the next video, next video next to you, and then you orgasm. And then you immediately feel like disgusted with yourself, you slam the computer down, and you're like, how could I have gotten into that? Or oh, I, and there's almost like this little depression afterwards. And I one time heard this was so interesting to me, because I've heard men talk about like that. Well, I mean, sometimes they'll say, like, post not clarity. But or, but the joke is that like there is there was genuinely like a dip in mood and a little feeling of shame and depression right after orgasm. And I was one time listening to someone, and they asked that person that I think they were psychologist or sexologist, like, why do we experience that? And they thought they were going to get an answer about like hormones and the way that like hormones work in our brains, and he was like, listen, yeah, there's a little bit of a hormone thing. But honestly, the majority of the reason why we experienced that is the ingrained purity culture of our society, like, we are told, it's double, you know, if you come from a purity culture, like a church or something, it's really strong. But even if you don't grow up that way, our culture still very much double speaks about sex. So masturbation is normal. And yet, you know, if you get caught masturbating, it's shameful and embarrassing, and you don't want anyone to know you do it. And this, that the other, and he and they were talking about how like, when you are in that adolescent phase, and you're exploring sex for the first time, and you're exploring it under this understanding of who this is something I really shouldn't be doing that you go into that like heightened experience, that heightened state of sexual arousal where you're a little bit fuzzy, and you're genuine, like you said, there's an altered state of consciousness. And then afterwards, the shame that you experience is mostly like societal messaging that you've given yourself for so many years. And that's why we experienced that I was like, Oh, my God. And it's true, like all of us, I think, have experienced that, and had that little fear of like, what does this mean about me, and the thing that really hit me about the way that you talk about kink is how explicit everything is because the messages that we get about sex through media, is that it is supposed like, in order for it to be real or passionate, it's supposed to be spontaneous. And you're just supposed to know what to do. And changing positions is natural. And no one's ever fumbling with any of their bits. And there's never like a height problem or a fit problem. There's never anyone being like, hey, actually, can we change positions. And so I feel like, particularly as a woman, when I started to actually have sex, you know, it's like, the reality doesn't fit what you see in the media. And so you're trying to just act as if, like, okay, like, I'm not supposed to ask, I'm not supposed to, you know, negotiate anything beforehand. And and so like, sex becomes kind of not all that, that it's cracked up to be. And then I started listening to you talk about kink where you're like, Yeah, people will talk about what do you like, and what do I like? And they'll talk in the middle of scenes, and they'll and like, the idea that you could do that and still experience like, all of the good parts. I was like, Wait a second, they might be on to something. Yeah,

    Sunny 13:40

    yeah. And like fun fact, the reason I'm in this industry, this is a second career for me. I was in corporate advertising for almost 20 years. And I was that person you just described that sex isn't all it's cracked up to be? How are we communicating in like Winky eyes and nudges? And like, we're not talking about this stuff? And why am I expected to be so raunchy and dirty and nasty? And then I'm shamed for it. I was like, there is a big piece of all of this missing. And when I stumbled upon King and I, of course, I was attracted to kinky things and my deepest, deepest thoughts that I felt ashamed about, you know, and when I discovered there was a whole community behind it, and a whole philosophy and of communication and consent and frameworks. I was like, Oh, this is what I missing. And all of these frameworks that we have in kink, dunwell are transferable tools that we can take anywhere and overlay into any relationship. Take the you know, kinky erotic sex out of it, and how I communicate and negotiate my needs with my teenage children. My boss, my mother, The person who was arguing with me in line at the store thing they were here first. Those are all the same skills. And that just blew my damn mind. And hi career change. Here I am.

    KC 15:12

    We were talking the other week about about something and I was I shared the story with you, but I want to share it with the audience. So I just finished all of the books of A Court of Thorns and Roses. I've been on like a real tear of like, romanticize it. And my favorite kind of romantic it is all the same trope. It's all this like, touch her and you die. That's my wife, sort of like playing with elements of you know, domination where the men are really violent, but they take care of you. And I've always sort of joke as I reading, it'd be like, Yes, I have trauma, leave me alone. Like, that's why this, I really love this. And there's this tick tock. I saw the other day, where it said, if your real life boyfriend talks to you the way your book boyfriend did, and the comments were so funny, because it was like your mind, brother in Oh, get on your knees. Excuse me, sir. And it was just like women talking about or kind of laughing to themselves that like if anyone actually ever spoke to them this way, they probably wouldn't like it. But yet they read it in the book. And they're like, holy shit, my panties are wet. And I had this thought, and I'm gonna make this Tiktok one point, but I was like, oh, like, she's, that's because you're not into men like that. You're into kink. You like it in the book, because it's safe. It's in the book. It's this fantasy world where a man can be those things. And that's not an indicator that he's a misogynist piece of shit, that doesn't respect you. Yes, in the book, you're reading the book, you're in control, you feel safe, it is wanted, you can put that book down. You know, it's not real. You're never in any actual real danger. Except for the edge of excitement, the idea of that domination gives you and I was like, ladies, it's because you're into kink. That's what it is. It's a safe container full of consent, where somebody can be dominant. And it doesn't mean that they disrespect you. And it doesn't mean that you're engaging in actual toxic relationships. To get that naughty little itch scratched. Yes,

    Sunny 17:09

    yes. I often say that kink. dunwell can be a consensual and intentional healthy outlet for the toxic situations and relationships that we romanticize. Because that stuff, who that gets us off, you know, and for those thinking, like, I don't get it, right. Okay, fine. If I dropped you off of a 30 storey building, you'd be terrified, you wouldn't want that. But you know what, you're on a roller coaster on that big hill, and you're like, let's do it. Again. It's in a safe container. You're doing it for fun and recreation. And you know that ultimately, you have that control. And that safety net, you are playing pretend when you're on a roller coaster, you're playing pretend fall off a 30 story building for fun. And we're doing the same thing and kink whether it's like a very physical thing, or it's that like, I'm romanticizing that guy who's bossing me around.

    KC 18:17

    Yeah, and I often think like when we I mean, as a therapist, you know, I'm totally familiar with this idea of like, we can get into relationship dynamics that are toxic and not good for us and that end up having consequences and destructive behavior and all this stuff and that we end up heartbroken and sometimes there's so like, I'm just gonna go broad stereotype, let's say, you know, a woman that continues to seek out men that are maybe controlling or dominant or not emotionally available, whatever, because they really like that protective feeling or that like, Oh, he's so masculine, like it really gets you go. And that idea of that, like alpha male feel, right? Quotation marks, but I also sometimes think about like podcast bros, that are like, really misogynistic, and kind of obsessed with this idea of like, Ooh, you know, a girl who is virginal and naive and that like both of those things are not if you believe those things as genuine worldviews I'm not just talking about sexual attractive, just genuine worldviews. It is toxic for you. It is toxic for the person you're engaging with, it is bad for the world, it is creates and reinforces power dynamics that are oppressive, right. And oftentimes, when people will engage with those types of people, whether they want it or they're really trying to get help, it's always like, how do we get you to want something different? How do we get you to see people different and not and want something different? Yada, yada, yada? And I had this thought before when I listen to like podcast bros, where it's like, you know, I feel like if you could just get into kink, like that might be like a path for you to be a better person, because there is an extent to which the way there's this concept called The erotic map which talks about like, basically how and what you find erotic and arousing, and it's slightly different for everyone. And yes, it can be meddled with a little. But in general, what we know from psychological research is that your psychological map is stamped by your childhood and adolescent experiences, and often doesn't waver much from where that from what it was. And I sometimes wonder, like, Has anyone told these men or these women like, you know, like, you could, because sometimes when they're being really honest, they'll be like, the thing is, is like, I'm genuinely not attracted to men that don't like and I know, that's horrible of me. I know, I should want them to cry and, and do these things. Like I'm genuinely not attracted, you know, and I feel like probably podcast bros would say the same. And some of me is like, Okay, but what if you could, like learn to respect people as people and not require that they live up to this thing on a daily day or day to day basis, and have a container where a person that you see as a person that you allow to be a full person will like, put on a schoolboy schoolgirl uniform for you, or like some man who treats you well, and is lovely to you and isn't toxic, but who will like go in the bedroom and tell you to get on your study fucking knees. Like, maybe that's where these people need to go.

    Sunny 21:21

    I mean, I honestly believe that I think that would help a hell of a lot of people I look at my own life when, you know, I didn't get into kink until I was in my mid 30s. And I looked at the relationships and situations that I was drawn to, and ooh, the situations I ended up being in were awful. And I'm like, you know, part of that attraction there to you know, that particular person that ended up being abusive, and I'm not victim blaming, or saying this is my fault, or, you know, anyone in similar situations fall, but like, that really explained a lot of the attraction for me when like, schicke are toxic, and my nipples are like, even though the rest of my brain was like, like, oh, okay, we I can control this in a safe container. And I think for a lot of folks, not, you know, being afraid of our sexual selves, and like, what does this mean about me and all that stuff? And then the societal message that we're given about sex and really, you know, when people are like, Ah, it's just sex, it doesn't matter. I firmly believe that the personal is political. And you know, when we are playing with kink in these power dynamics, we are perverting social norms and hierarchies for our pleasure. So it's like we are seeking out Lea, let's say, we're, I'm that stereotypical heterosexual, submissive woman who's seeking out that dominant man, right? What things have I been told from society and the way our world works about that power dynamic in the real world? How does it confuse the fuck out of me? How does it you know, do I have that subconscious? Like, I know that's wrong in my logical brain, but my subconscious mind is like, that's hot, go after that. Right? Why? Well, because this is what we've been told what we've been fed in every movie, etc. And then when it comes to our erotic selves, like, we don't understand our sexual motivations, and we're shamed by them. So things that in my logical everyday brain I go into, that's gross, that's morally wrong, I would never stand for that. For some reason, when I'm horny, that those things become the hottest things in the world. I crave disgusting, dirty, gross things. I crave toxic situations, maybe I maybe I'm a feminist, and I would never let a man bossed me around, I would never make him muffins and give him his slippers when he arrives home. God damn for sex, I do that in a heartbeat. And I don't understand why I think that makes me a horrible person. So I'm just going to suppress it, suppress it, suppress it, and it's going to keep coming out because like you were saying, you know, there's certain things it's like, we like what we like, and sometimes we can't explain it. It's, you know, for it's for a lot of reasons, and we can over psychoanalyze it to death.

    KC 24:12

    And you can even recognize, like, maybe it didn't come from a great place. Like maybe it didn't come from a great place. Maybe it is toxic messages from society. But you know what, that's how it fucking got stamped at an early age, when I was sharing about the books that I liked. And I made a Tiktok where I said, you know, like, I this I know, this is a reflection of my trauma. And there's a big controversy in fantasy books about the use of sexual assault and fantasy books, because authors will often use it as like a quick way to character development or like an easy way to Oh, and I heard this really great tech talk the other day where she was talking about, like, sometimes fantasy writers will use sexual assault as an easy way to character development, but also, it's the setup to show which men are bad men and which men are good men because like everyone's kind of morally gray and doing the same kind of violence are the same kind of danger. But then there are some willing to cross that line. And then there are others that will come and rescue your protagonist from that. And that's really the only way in those books we know who's the good guy and who's the bad guy. And they were criticizing or not really criticizing, they were asking authors to be more aware of, you know, how appropriate is it, to use a woman's sexual trauma, as you're centering men, like, it's just used as a flag for men, it's not used as a part of this woman's story or a product, right. And so, but it was a great conversation. And as someone who loves fantasy and who like writes fantasy, as a hobby, what I commented on, it was, this is such an interesting conversation, because as a writer, I agree with you, as a reader. I love that shit. Like, I know, it's problematic, and for all the reasons, and I like when books have sexual assault, and she's moments away from being assaulted, and a man rescues her. And I understand why that's problematic. And I understand that my early childhood experiences with sexual violation, set up a situation for me where like part of the way that I dealt with that as a kid, and I'm talking third grade, fourth, very young, was maladaptive daydreaming. And the Daydream was always the same, it was always I'm about to be sexually assaulted. And a man walks in and stops it. And then I used to always, like, really, really wish I had brothers. And so there wasn't even like a sexual component. It was this protective man component. So like, the daddy issues, met the sexual violation, trauma met the and like, that is what I thought about and wished for as a child and you grow up, you're 37, it's like that shit is like, I've done so much healing. This is not something I'm trying to work out in my everyday like, who I'm attracted to, and who I go for, you know, in relationship, but it's still there. And I can judge it and say how wrong it is and how it came from such a, you know, backwards place and suppress it like you're talking about. But there's this idea that like, you know, people can talk about, how, what do we do with that? And I feel like part of kink is this idea that like, what if it was morally neutral? Yes. Or what if we could express it in a way that was morally neutral, like, like, there's a way to express it, where you're, it's almost subconscious, and you're trying to, you know, do something within your real relationships and the people you're attracted to, and you're creating toxicity, and you're creating self destruction? And like, you're, and maybe you're hurting other people, and you're hurting yourself? But maybe the answer isn't just make yourself stop, you know, letting your nipples get hard when you think about being rescued from sexual Yes. Yeah, right. Or when you think about, you know, I am strong, powerful woman. And yet the idea when I read those scenes in the books, where she's forced to be humiliated, right, or forced to wear the dress where you could see everything, and she can't control herself, like, why does that turn me on? Instead of shaming ourselves for that? Maybe we can do both. Like maybe we can say, I don't want this in the driver's seat of my life, right? But I don't have to bound it and gag it and put it in the trunk. Right?

    Sunny 28:20

    I want to take it out and play with it in a controlled environment. And you know, and there's a couple points I want to make, because this is like some heavy stuff we're getting at and for listeners, who might be in and this is this is very much stigma busting, which is what we have to do constantly when we're thinking about this stuff. So a lot of people's knee jerk reaction hearing, what we just talked about was like, you know, first of all, who how can people fantasize about sexual assault, especially people who are who have been victims or survivors of sexual assault? And it is a thing you know, amongst all genders granted, it is largest among people who are assigned female at birth, but amongst all genders, there are lots of evidence and studies that this is a huge fantasy as for sex, right? And then the second point I want to make is people listening going, Oh, see, here's the trauma. All these kinky people are fucked up, because they're working out their trauma and kink. First of all, studies time and time again, say like people who are kinky are no more or less quote, fucked up than the average person like, we're human. We've all got shit. Secondly, sometimes things have a source and trauma, and sometimes they don't. And guess what those things that do have that are grounded in our trauma or from our trauma that doesn't just come out in sex. Let's go back to the line at the grocery store. Some asshole butts right in front of me obvious like it's the audacity and I go to open my mouth. How can be like, hey, Buster got a song Hey Buster again, you got to the back of the line. And I go to my mouth and I can't. And I'm like, oh, and I know like, I need to fucking say something to this jerk, but I can't do it. And then I start to feel small. And then I start to feel anxiety, right? We might be able to take that back to our childhood where we couldn't stand up for ourselves, or we did and we were shut down and something bad happened. Guess what, we bring our trauma with us everywhere. So because it's coming up in sex and kink, what do you do that doesn't make it wrong, it comes up everywhere. And sometimes it's not about trauma at all. So I want to throw that destigmatizing out there. So we can get past those thoughts as we're listening, and like really dig into what this is about. And you know, when it comes to kink, and we're playing with this stuff in a safe container, we boil things down to their tropes, like to their biggest characteristic, so I am a dominance, I am good. And I you know, my archetype is very authoritarian, put my foot down, because I said, so I'm threatening you, right? I'm not a full dimensional human being at that point, I am playing a role and a character that like, I have taken those defining characteristics about that archetype. And I have blown them up to like a cartoonish, ridiculous bigness, right? That's what we're doing. So when we're boiling things down, like you were talking about boiling down the storylines to these, like, really stereotypical tropes that in some contexts can be damaging. When we're fantasizing, and we're playing with them. Yeah, we boil things down to those stereotypical tropes, we're perverting social norms and hierarchies for our pleasure, we are playing with or semi reenacting what we know. Well,

    KC 31:57

    and that is one of the things that just in psychology in general, we know that people do is that, you know, when someone comes to me as a client, and they go, you know, I don't know why I keep seeking out the same romantic partner, and it never ends well, for me, and it's like the same, the same, the same. And, you know, I don't want to be like, too, over simplistic about it. But oftentimes, a person is able to say, oh, I can see where this comes from, I can see that the way that my father behaved, the way my mother behaved, or something that happened to us as children or whatever like, and what we find is, we will often subconsciously try and recreate the situations that traumatized us, because we are hoping for a different ending. So to be overly simplistic, you know, you have a dad that's maybe violent and mean or something like that, right. And you find yourself attracted to those men who are kind of big and macho, and this and that. And there's a part of it, that kind of goes, this is familiar, and the protective pneus. And the possessiveness feels good, because this is who would have protected me. But in the real world, some of those personality characteristics, nine times out of 10 come with other baggage and personality issues that are not going to end well for your heart and your safety and your emotional wellness. But there's something about us, and this is anything right? Like it, let's say, you know, someone might talk about how they try to push people away a lot, they push people away, they push people away, they push people away. And you know, it's this, you know, let me do this before you can do this. And but we secretly wish there would be a different ending, we wish somebody would stay, even though we're pushing them away. Because then we wouldn't feel maybe we would know that we're there. And I think that there's this real interesting power of kink that gives you a safe place to have those corrective experiences. Because when we think about I mean, my big maladaptive daydream, when I was a kid always involved. And I guess if you're related to me, this is gonna make you feel weird. Log right off, literally involved being chained to a wall. And all of the kids in my class are chained to a wall naked, and all the kids in my class walking by and they were able to do whatever they wanted to me until somebody comes in and saves me. And the truth is, is like, if I was in that actual situation, the actual experience of being on that wall would be scary and miserable and traumatizing. And I wouldn't be enjoying it. But when the maladaptive Daydream happens, that's not the emotional part that I'm savoring. It's the feeling when somebody busts in and says, No, she's worth saving. That's the emotional part I want to experience but when I'm not tuned in to all of those things, and I'm not self aware of those things, I go about my life looking subconsciously for the men, or the women and the situation. means that I can recreate this dynamic because I want that cathartic feeling. But in the real world, I have to feel all the feelings of being chained to the wall, which aren't good ones to get that one little someone busts in. And but I can, when I'm self aware about it, I can go well, but in kink, like I can work through the healing of what's happening in my life outside of the safe container. And yet still, like that itch, to feel that feeling of protection, like might not ever get go away, no matter how quote unquote, healed, I

    Sunny 35:31

    am, right. Yeah. And, you know, I can imagine a lot of people listen to this to thinking like, Well, okay, in order to be kinky, and do all this stuff, I have to like, go through 15 years of therapy first to really understand my motivations and why you don't have to understand why like, this is our jobs and where we geek out. So we like to talk about why and me and my personal life as a kinky person. Part of it for me is digging into the why and psychoanalyzing and for other people, they're like, there is no bigger turnoff than thinking about how all this should I feel in the bedroom, it's attached to my childhood, in my experience, like fuck that, like, that's got sexy, you don't have to think about the why. And I'm going to put a pin in a caveat there, I'll come back to it. But you have to trust and at least know that like, this is coming from someplace, right? It's a need you have doesn't matter why it's an emotional need that you have, it's something you want to explore, there is something wrong with you because of it, there are a number of ways to explore it, one could be like you were talking about a very unhealthy way in the real world in real dynamics. Or another way can be in a controlled consensual environment like kink, where if you're, if you set it up, and you talk about it, negotiate, you're like, This is gonna be great. And you get five minutes into it, you're like, I was wrong, you have a safe word. And you can say, No, you're always in control. And we don't have say forth on roller coasters either. So I'm going to put kink above roller coasters. So you know, that is really as much as you need to know, it's kind of like trust in yourself trust in like the process, I equate it to kink being like a background operating systems download on your computer. So I'm playing World of Warcraft, right? I'm having a good old time a pop up comes up like, we are updating to a new version of Windows 10, and blah, blah, blah, but this is gonna happen in the background, you can keep playing your game, you won't even know that this new processing and improvement is happening. It just is. So I think of that as kinked. Like, we don't need to know exactly what's happening, and why are being control of it. But no, like, we're working shit out when we're having fun. And the caveat I put in that is if you are a person who is dominant, you know, this is an example. But like dominant, not only in kink, but dominant in the real world hierarchy. Let's say you are like a white sis male who dates women, and maybe your current partner is younger than you. So there's a power dynamic there, maybe you know, you're white, and they're a person of color. There's a real world power, dynamic difference there. When you are playing with that person in that safe container, you can sometimes enact some things that really dip into real world trauma and reinforce real world oppression, negative shit, you know, think of those podcasts, bro, it's like we were talking about. So if you are in that situation, there's my caveat, it is your responsibility to dig deep enough into the why of what you are doing and why you weren't doing it. And to make sure that doesn't cause harm to the person that you're playing with.

    KC 39:06

    I think that's a really good caveat, especially earlier when I was saying like maybe podcast bros need to get into kink. I mean, obviously, they don't need to just like, suddenly start trying to do this. But the idea would be to unpack and be different in the real world and still have that safe container. I think that's important to bring up because, you know, I think sometimes when we talk about not like kink being like morally neutral, whatever we often are thinking towards, like, sort of your classic stereotypical, like, Okay, I'm a woman who wants to be dominant, or I'm a man, I think that it's easier for us to think about, you know, a woman or a man who wants to be dominated or a woman who wants to dominate. But then when it comes to like a man that wants to dominate, it's so close to what the real world power structures are. That I think sometimes and I've had this thought where it's like, I don't think there's anything wrong with a woman who wants to be choked In a consensual, kinky relationship, and sometimes men, I'll hear talk about like, listen, like that's, I'm not a bad guy, she, that's what she wants. I'm giving her what she wants. But there's always the thought of like, right, but like, what kind of man is like, aroused by choking a woman? And what does that mean about you? And what's going on? And so can you kind of talk maybe about like, what are those dynamics? And like, how can one tell? Or how could a partner tell like, hey, you know, why is there a situation in which someone who would normally align themselves with power? would want to play out power in a sexual context? That shouldn't be like just a giant red flag? Yeah, yeah.

    Sunny 40:45

    And this is, you know, not either not understanding this from outsiders looking in, or from people doing kink is, you know, one of the big reasons we have a lot of stigma about kink, and it's also a pretty big contributor to kink not done well. Right. So let's say I am a, you know, sis, man, and I dominate women and like you were saying, there's many other configurations, you know, you can be submissive man, this is just like, we're going with the stereotype. We're going with a common trope, right? So why would I want to do that? Yeah, I need to examine to make sure if I'm, you know, spanking and tying up my girlfriends, that I'm not doing it to reinforce what society tells me a man is in my masculinity and my power over another person, right? So that's the first step. The second step, why might I actually genuinely like it for a not toxic reason? Well, maybe I look at it as I'm kind of providing a service, I'm doing something for my partner, they need this for a certain reason. And I want to help facilitate that. I want to help give it to them. Maybe I'm working out some of my own stuff. You know, perhaps I have a history where maybe I did some bad shit. Maybe I wasn't asshole, right. And I never had that corrective experience. I just remained an asshole and had to deal with that. And now I have, I'm doing it in a controlled environment with a partner. That's like, guess what, I still love you. At the end of the day, we're having our aftercare. And we've talked about it. And I've reassured you that you did exactly what I wanted. And it was perfect. It was hot, and it was sexy. There's my corrective experience. Right there, right? Maybe, you know, I think of myself because I play the role of a dominant most of the time these days. And for me, it's very much like I get to access parts of myself that I'm not allowed to be in the real world. Less I be called, you know, a bitch. People don't like me, I'm domineering. And I'm a No at all. I'm no fun, can I be fun, and be the boss and have people kiss my ass, and, you know, tell everybody what to do. And I'm not the best, or maybe I am the bitch, but they love me for it. I don't have those negative consequences at the end, you know, and it's like, we could keep going down that rabbit hole of reasons why we might look like we're doing something horrible and abusive look like maybe even though we're doing it in a controlled environment, it's reinforcing toxicity outside of that bedroom. But there are many reasons that can be done in a healthy way. So when I talk about, you know, that misunderstanding, or unknowing contributing to the stigma, it's because we don't know, somebody flogging somebody else, and tying them up while they're crying looks exactly the same when it's done horribly, and in an abusive way. And when it's done with intention, and consent, and consensually, and for all the right reasons, it doesn't look any different. And we can't tell the difference. The only people that know that difference are the people involved. And that's hard for us as humans to accept, we look at other people and we think we know their situation better than they do. Well, that guy's dominant because he's just a misogynistic asshole, that no man in his right mind would want to choke a woman. Hence, here we are.

    KC 44:32

    So let me ask you this. I have two things that are coming up for me is one of what do you ever talk to people about? I feel like there's this like slippery slope fear that people have around like anything taboo and arousal. And I've heard people talk about this from personal experience, and I've heard people talk about this from fear where it's like, typically the story goes, it's usually like someone watching porn. And it's like, okay, well, this doesn't do it for me. So I need something, you know, more extreme. And then they do that. And then that doesn't do it for they need something more extreme and more extreme. And it almost sets up this like, fear. And some people have, I don't want to like dip my toes in anything taboo or anything kink because like, what if it opens up this thing where, and now I just need more and more and more and more extreme stuff to get aroused? Or to orgasm? Like, how do you talk about that within a healthy kink?

    Sunny 45:31

    So, you know, it's kind of that concept that we have, in other areas, that belief system, like, almost like we're gonna burn out our horny receptors. So we have to keep getting more and more extreme, because we're becoming desensitized. And, you know, that's a common sort of belief or line of thinking we have in lots of ways. So first of all, I'm going to address like, first the elephant in the room, like, can in some instances that happen? Yeah. You know, is it rare? Yes, absolutely. Most of the time, when we're doing kink done well, in a healthy way, that is not going to happen. Because it's not just we're satisfying a thing. We've checked it off. Now we're going up the ladder, the hierarchy, right? Things aren't as hierarchical as we think they are. We live in a hierarchical based society, right? However, are there, you know, you hear about there was a case. years ago, it was a guy who was frequenting kink websites who was into cannibalism like fantasy cannibalism. And the way his communication with other people went, looked like he was gearing up towards like, actually doing it. Right. And I don't think and I can't remember the details of the case, offhand. But I don't I don't know if he ever actually did. But it got to the point of prosecution. And yes, he has this intent. It's attempted that either that or that, you know, and it's like, do some people go that far? Yeah, we'll never know. If this guy would have gotten that far. Right. Doesn't happen. Something. Yeah. extreme cases. But there's that trust again, of like, you know, it's almost like yes, people can be horrible drivers. Right? And they might crash their car, they might crash a car on purpose. Maybe they're, you know, suicidal, they're gonna, does that mean, we're gonna take away licenses and the ability to drive for every human being? Because somebody might go rogue? And do something horrible? No. Right?

    KC 47:38

    When I wonder if that's more likely to happen in isolation, like, I wonder, because that when I talk to people who, you know, every once awhile, I've talked someone who has to kind of, they feel like they've experienced that little like, Oh, it's getting darker and darker and darker. It's always like very isolated, like, I'm alone with my computer, or I'm alone with a partner. And there's no like, like ownership of, yeah, like, I'm into kink. And that's fine. It's there. It's kind of like shame driven. And there's like other things going on, that they probably shouldn't be trying to work out via this route. And so I wonder if it's like a misunderstand, I mean, and to be clear, for the audience, like, kink can happen, just with your monogamous partner, that you're also in relationship. And that's just what you'd like to do. And then, you know, there's a whole other world of kink where you might enter into a relationship with another person just for a kink experience. Right. And so like, there's a wide spectrum there. But I do wonder if there's something about the shame driven isolation experience, and it also seems to be like orgasm centric, versus like, when I hear people that are into health and a kinky way, they're talking a lot more globally, about the brain tingles and about the relationship and about the after care and about the, the relational awareness,

    Sunny 49:02

    if that makes sense. Yeah, absolutely.

    KC 49:04

    I just, I think some people listening might have this fear of like, you know, I can't tap into that darkness because I don't know where it will take me.

    Sunny 49:11

    Right. Right. And a lot of that is is very valid, you know, and this is why I do what I do. Because I really believe taking away the stigma, the shame, and also those misconceptions, just having the misconception like wow, I've been like orgasming to this thing. That's kind of weird for a while. Now, I must climb the ladder, right? That fear of like, oh, no, I'm going to climb the ladder. The shame, the misunderstanding that it's like all about the sex, the misunderstanding that the more kinky you are, the more fucked up you are, and not having an outlet to talk about it. Understand it excetera you know, that can kind of become a self fulfilling prophecy. And I'm not, you know, not to say, Oh, that's it all instances. But that's a scenario that's, that's really valid. And you know, talking about, for instance, the brain tangles or going like, what is behind this? Like, why do I like this fantasy? Is it just about the orgasm? Or is it something else? So like, I'll talk to people who have really extreme fantasies, right, that they, if they actually did would be dangerous, like, so let's find a way to reenact that where you get that feeling. But it's smoke and mirrors it's play act, and you're not actually doing the bad thing, right? Or even couples that come to me for coaching that they're like, Yeah, we're both kinky, but we, you know, one partner has this fantasy that they all they can't get another. And the other partner is like, I can't get down with that. I cannot get down with that. So then we dig down. What is that lowest common denominator? Like? What is the feeling that you're going after? You know, and I have tools for people that negotiate kinky experiences, and one of them is an emotional map, like you pick out like, okay, during the scene, I want to feel this that miss my outcome, I want to feel this that Miss at the end. That's my goal. Now, how can we build around that? Right? So an example is, let's say someone's into age play. And the other person's like, can't go there? Nope. can't pretend, you know, you're like dressing a little kid clothes. That is not my thing. It freaks me out. It's traumatizing. No. Okay. Person who has that fantasy? What are you going after? Maybe it's been cared for not having responsibilities, the ability to feel silly, you know, all of those things. So we dig that down. Okay, what other scenario or kink or activity? Can we overlay to get to those same things? And maybe this is just theoretical, maybe for that person, pet play, you know, I'm gonna pretend to be a puppy, because I get the same so I can be silly and goofy. Maybe I could, you know, they like, correct me and spank me kind of like playfully, they care take for me, I get the same things. Great. You know, so I feel like those people who have all these misconceptions and shame about kink that think they're going down that rabbit hole would benefit from knowing some of that stuff, and also not to discount. Sometimes the rabbit hole is the fantasy. Oh, it's an addiction. Oh, my God, it's overtaking me, I'm just going to become perverted, more perverted and perverted. I'm just going to become like, a big ball of jackoff sitting on the bed, that's my whole being is going to become perverse. And oh, no, maybe that's the fantasy. But you think it's real? Yeah.

    KC 52:50

    And it strikes me that like, you know, everything, when we think about like, okay, ways that could go wrong, it's all the same ways that vanilla sex goes wrong, too, when it comes to, you know, lack of consent or abuse, or like working out, you know, something that you haven't really looked at, or reading engaging in harmful dynamics, or, you know, all those things. And, you know, I think about how it really isn't about one type of sex being more, you know, more or less or good or bad or like, and compared to the other as much as looking at how, regardless of whether you think that you're into kinky things, or you just think, man, vanilla sex does it for me, I think that the things that good kink does well, is the same thing we could benefit from even in vanilla sex when we talk about sort of negotiation and consent and aftercare and not feeling shame and trust and safety, and acknowledging that erotic self, as you know, allowing that erotic self to come out to play. And also, like, I think, especially for people who sort of navigate the world, as a woman, like, also like the expectation of your own pleasure, which is oftentimes absent in at least heteronormative types of sex for a lot of women. And so you know, even vanilla sex can get dark and dangerous and scary and not healthy. It's really a kind of how you go about it.

    Sunny 54:31

    And this is where we come back to like the distinction of kink. dunwell versus kink not done well. When we look at, you know, just kink out in the wild. There are many, many, many, many instances of people thinking while I'm doing kink and kink is healthy, right? And the kink world and kink relationships are rife with abuse, manipulate Shannon excetera. And I'll tell you why it's not because kinky people are bad or anything like that, right? But especially in this day and age of social media where, you know, kink used to be a very close community, where people really talked about, like, these are principles, and you know, what we believe in and what we stand up. I know, we've got social media, and everyone's connected in weird ways. And there are people who are like, Yeah, I'm really kinky, and they don't even know what consent is, you know what I mean? So those lines become really blurry. So let's say you get yourself into a kink relationship with somebody and you know, we'll go with the stereotype again, I'm a submissive, my dominant tells me like, oh, well, I'm dominant, and you're submissive, and, and you know, that, like submissives have to be put to the test, they have to earn privileges, like you have to earn your safe words, you don't get a safe word right away, because that's the way it goes, because I'm the dominant. So I tell you what to do. That sounds really logical. If we believe the stereotypes about kink like, Well, yeah, that is my dominant, I guess. That is horrible. That is not that is taking away your consent. So it's like those lines become really blurry. When you know, just in the mainstream, we encounter kink, because we can't recognize kink done well. And kink done not well, is everywhere.

    KC 56:20

    I think it sounds like sex in general, not done well, is also everywhere. Because all the problems you just listed, that could be with kink. I was like, Yeah, I mean, there's also plenty of that in just regular vanilla sex.

    Sunny 56:30

    Yeah. And take it back to like, you know, what a healthy relationship is supposed to look like? Can you count? Do you have enough fingers on one hand to count how many relationships listener that you know, in your real life? Nope. And that has nothing to do with like, Well, it's because relationships are bad, nobody should ever get together. And it's just like, it's not because kink is bad. It's because we're humans. And we're fucked up. And society has done a horrible job at teaching us to be self aware, to being emotionally competent, being empathetic, and compassionate. Like we all got dealt a raw hand, and we didn't get taught any of this stuff. And you know, at least when I look at kink, dunwell, and I look at those frameworks, and I look at the intent behind it. We are trying to correct for that shitty hand we've been dealt as humans and taught nothing. I

    KC 57:29

    do feel like in the kink world, like when I've watched your content, when I've watched some other people's content, at least, there is a lot of explicit talk about kink, gone wrong and kinked unwell. And even though it's big, and it's wide, and anyone can get on, it still feels like there's this protective Enos of people to call out when they see and it's like, it's very clear, if you listen to people talk about when it goes right when it goes wrong. And I don't see that same thing in vanilla sex. I don't see just random people being like, let's talk about and I'm not saying it's not out there. There are lots of great sexologist, it'll talk about healthy sex, but it's not as from a community standpoint, from a society standpoint, we're not as closely watching. Okay, we see these two over here. What's this dynamic light because we just assume, Oh, they're just you know, they'll figure it out. Oh, you know, it's sex. It's not you know, it's not dark. Certainly, this has been such a great conversation and I know that you and I could go on forever about this. But if people you know if they want to know more, if they want to follow you, you know, where can they find you on social media, where can they What do you have website resources? Go ahead and plug yourself?

    Sunny 58:42

    Yeah, easy peasy. I am sunny Megatron everywhere. So su NY Megatron. So today megatron.com. For my website, Sunny Megatron on Tik Tok, Instagram, you know, all the places where you can find me, I also have on demand classes, you can, you know, find me on Gumroad or just linked to it from any of my stuff. And I teach as well, I coach as well. And I try to do what I can to give education for free because this conversation, I know there are people listening right now, who had like, mind exploding lightbulb moments like, Oh, my goodness, the stuff that I just put together doesn't just apply to me in the bedroom. It is, you know, transferable across so many relationships. So I firmly believe that everyone should have access to these kinds of conversations, unfortunately, capitalism. So I try to do as much as I can on social media. I also have a Patreon as well. So yeah, follow along, start listening to the conversations, getting into the conversations and see where it takes you. So I think it'll be super

    KC 59:56

    awesome. We'll say thank you so much.

    Sunny 59:58

    Thank you

    Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Christy Haussler