92: Trad Wives: The Psychology of Anti-Feminism with Dr. Lesley Cook
Buckle up for this one! We are discussing the interesting topic of trad wives, the psychology of anti-feminism, and the pushback/feedback we are seeing on TikTok. If you aren’t sure what any of that means, stay with us, and we will explain. I’m joined by my good friend and frequent guest on the show, clinical psychologist, Dr. Lesley Cook.
Show Highlights:
A montage of trad wife audio content
The overriding philosophy of trad wife content: the good way vs. the bad way (with no in-between)
KC’s definition of a trad wife: “a woman who chooses to stay home, submit to her husband, and embrace traditional gender roles because they believe God says they will be happier” (usually with undertones of homeschooling, homesteading, and political/religious agendas)
The correlation between mainstream marketing, multi-level marketing, and trad wife philosophy: they all create the myth around what they are trying to sell
The psychology of instability, isolation, loneliness, vulnerability, and a lack of belonging common in the trad wife movement
Too much feminism OR not enough feminism??
Our responsibility as a global community of women to the problems of patriarchy
Patriarchy, the myth, and the marketing campaign
Scenarios in which a trad wife is trapped, isolated, overtaxed, and overwhelmed—but still believes the myth
Traps that pop up in many areas with exploitive systems that can all be tied to money
How we are consuming trad wife content with a romanticized view of the false narrative
Resources and Links:
Connect with Dr. Lesley Cook: TikTok
Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook
Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning
We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes.
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KC 0:05
Hello sentient ball of stardust. Welcome to Struggle Care. I'm your host, KC Davis. And today, I am with my good friend, Dr. Leslie Cook, who is a psychologist. And we're going to talk about Trad wives, and specifically kind of like the psychology of anti feminism. And so like, as to mental health professionals with ADHD, we're probably going to go all over the place. But I'm going to do a couple of episodes about Trad wives, and if you don't know what they are, we're going to tell you, so don't worry, and then just talk about that and see where it goes. So Leslie, thank you for being here.
Lesley PsyD 0:38
Thanks for having me, as always, so
KC 0:39
I have done quite a bit of TiC TOCs talking about Trad wives. And there's always a lot of pushback on how I'm criticizing women on how I'm criticizing stay at home moms. And so I want to start just by playing a little montage of like, actual Trad wife content. So people are super clear, like who and what we are discussing. This is like a little montage super cut, okay, before
feminism, and winged women, until leaving their homes in droves. The majority of women were at home, caring for their children, and their homes, while their husbands worked hard to provide for them. Then the radical feminist leaders came along and convinced women that they were being oppressed by men. So women believed it. And they left their homes in droves. And they went to work for other men. And they let other people raise her children. And they threw off their clothes. And they started sleeping around with multiple men. And you think about that, how is this freedom, taking off your clothes being sexually promiscuous, to me that satisfying men's fantasy that's giving in demand and what they want. It's completely opposite of how women were before feminism, hoodwinked women, women were safe and protected when they were in their homes, dressing modestly, only having sexual intimacy with their husbands, officer safety for women, elite hoodwinked, you stop believing the lies, go back to the old paths that God has ordained for you.
Speaker 1 2:25
So the first one is, I don't leave the house after dark by myself, Oxford sex friendships, I don't think a woman needs to have a male best friend, there's, I submit, and I serve my husband. This is a biblical thing. So don't twist this into something. And it's not. It is a blessing to be my husband helped me. And the Bible has the man of the household, not the woman. So he leads. Number four, we don't involve any outsiders or family members into our disputes. So with my hair and clothes, I like to wear the things that he likes. A lot of Western women don't sit here and think, What can I do to make my men happy? No, they think what is he going to do to make me happy? You guys don't understand the benefits that you reap. When you think about your partner before yourself.
Speaker 2 3:17
culture tells women, that it's honorable to sacrifice everything for your job. But it's unfair to sacrifice everything for your family, that it's liberating, to be sexually used by men who are not committed to you. But it's oppressive to love and respect is that it's somehow empowering to rely on the system to educate your kids, feed your family and keep you alive. Rather than have the skills to do it yourself. I said culture is full of
KC 3:47
baby. So that one by the way, what often say it to you because it was just words on the screen. But it was a tweet. It was a picture of a tweet. And in it. It said, Let me pull it up for you. It says I used to be really into politics, but now I just relaxed while my husband tells me what to think.
Speaker 1 4:14
Woman can and ought to be judged by the criteria of femininity, for it is in their femininity that they participate in the human race, and femininity has its limitations.
Speaker 1 4:24
We live in a day and age where traditional homemaking has been forgotten about and even looked down on where women are fighting to be in the same positions as men indoctrinated to focus more on their careers and less on the home. When God created men and women more than just biologically different. Our roles are meant to complement each other not to compete. Our husbands are to be the breadwinners as we are to be the bread makers. Somewhere along the line feminine has been replaced with feminism with the sole purpose of keeping women out of the home, which forces those to rely on the government to teach and raise our children. marriage is falling apart because the God who created it is being left out of it and an overall discussion To the home because the one created to nurture it has been empowered to neglect.
Speaker 2 5:03
This is an oppression at all this is freedom.
KC 5:08
Okay, so shall we take a moment to calm our rolling nausea. So there's a lot going on there. And let me just describe for the audience at home like visually what's happening in these videos. So one of these women first of all, is old. Like she's much older than me. And she's been doing this kind of content for 20 plus years. I mean, before Tik Tok, she was on Facebook before Facebook, she had a blog. She has gone viral a few times for her like lists about like a working mom versus a stay at home mom and how much better they are. And then another one of them is, I mean, she's beautiful. Like she has like Marilyn Monroe hair. She's dressed in kind of like 50s housewife esque things that was the one that was talking about, like her rules. And then the rest of them are like montages of women doing women things with that kind of like narrative over the top. And so it's like women in dresses and not like Duggar dresses, like cute, like weird, maybe just that weird. One weird season of target that did the prairie dresses are like very sweet, cute, like crossback linen aprons. The women are really pretty, they're all thin. They're all their hair is done. Their makeup is done to varying degrees. They're holding children and talking about homeschooling, one of them's baking bread. They're all like taking bread out of the oven as they're like talking about these things. So there's a lot of overlap visually with sort of like that really aesthetic picture of like womanhood and motherhood, what else? What else can we share about like what we're seeing here?
Lesley PsyD 6:48
It seems like also, there's a black and white view of what is being presented versus what the alternative is. So this is the this whole view is the right way, the good way. And anything in opposition to that is the bad way the wrong way. Yeah. And you can add in the good way, we're happy in the bad way. We're not happy.
KC 7:06
And you can hear the overlapping topics like homeschooling relying on the government, you hear some like homesteading verbiage in there. There's a lot of there's a lot of like ways that people get in this like weird Trad wife pipeline, and one is just through religion, straight religion, right. But you can see the cross sections of other ones like there's a lot of homeschooling, homesteading, a lot of political issues that align with it. And I personally like having gone through the evangelical church that taught these sort of like gender roles about like men are supposed to lead and provide and women are supposed to nurture and follow and submit. I have like kind of a strict criteria for what I consider a Trad wife, because when Trad wife started to kind of blow up on the internet again, people started throwing that around like oh, so and so's a trap wife so and so's a Trad wife so as a Trad wife and I have kind of like a strict criteria for my personal view because Trad wife originated specifically in the context of conservative Christian like movements. Trad wives really are content creators, who are either implicitly or explicitly like their like choice to stay at home and submit to their husbands is like religiously based. So we're not talking about like stay at home parents or women who wanted to stay at home or women that maybe had to stay at home or women who were just like doing the best they can under patriarchy. Like I am very specifically talking about women who embrace quote, unquote, traditional gender roles, because they believe God says this is how it should be, as you mentioned, this idea that if we do it the way God said to, we'll be happier. And there's always this emphasis on like submitting to a man. And so like that is specifically what I'm talking about. And there's this line of anti feminism. Feminism was really the lie. Feminism is really the oppression feminism is really the whatever, whatever. And that to me is like marketing genius. Yeah.
Lesley PsyD 9:05
And so much of this is as I'm like taking some notes as we're talking. So much of this follows kind of traditional, not only mainstream marketing, but also like multi level marketing. And it's might seem like those are completely different topics, but they're actually not there's a very cohesive psychology that goes along with maintaining these cycles. And a lot of that has to do with creating the myth around the thing that you're trying to sell. Which is
KC 9:31
funny because you know, where multilevel marketing is biggest
Lesley PsyD 9:35
den Chad wise,
KC 9:36
do you know what state though? Oh, no, Utah, where there's a lot of Mormons, and specifically the more conservative Mormons who are going to do move towards like Trad wife type ideals. So I want to read you so one of the women that was talking in that got interviewed and she said something in the interview that I want to read and I want to talk about and I want to talk about how it is because I think it's really easy to think like, Oh, these women are stupid, or these women are brainwashed or like I could never be like how, but like, a lot of these women did not grow up religious. And so you're kind of thinking like, how did they get there? So this was like a fascinating, fascinating quote, okay, ready? Okay. And I think her name is pronounced SD, E. Ste, St. Williams grew up in a broken household and realized quickly, she didn't want to repeat the mistakes of her parents. I didn't grow up traditional, she says, and I think that does play a big part in my decision to move towards this lifestyle. I grew up in a very hectic household, and my parents got divorced when I was younger, Williams watched her mother work all hours of the day, and then come home and cook and clean for her family. I just knew I didn't want to be that wife or mother that went to work full time and came home and still had to do the cooking and cleaning. She says, I really admired different families around me who had more of a traditional mother at home doing all of these things. Bless her heart, I don't think she understands how, like how much she gave away in that answer. I'm curious, your thoughts from like, a psychology perspective of like, what is drawing her to this?
Lesley PsyD 11:08
Yeah, I think I mean, there's a couple of things that come to mind pretty immediately. And that is one of the crises that we have in, I guess, modern times, but maybe forever is a lack of belonging and a sense of stability for vulnerable populations. So in this case, we're talking about women as it like sis women, as opposed to sis men, that the culture that we have does not foster belongingness safety balance, I hear in that answer, like I'm okay with working hard, I don't want to work doubly hard, with no ability to be recognized for that or feel like I've done enough, and I can rest. And that is a cultural phenomenon, this rugged independence, individualism, like this capitalist mindset that I do think ends up people feel exhausted. And then they see the shining city on the hill, right? They see this oasis in this desert of individualism. And maybe they think, Gosh, for a moment, I wouldn't have to make a decision could be with my children and be relaxed. I think there's a draw for folks that have experienced instability or isolation or loneliness.
KC 12:17
I think it's really interesting that what she considers a failure of feminism is actually like, she sees that like, oh, women, now they have the right to work now. And this is a really big Trad wife propaganda line is like, what were you fighting for? So you fought and fought and fought to go to work great, good for you. Now you go to work, and you do all of the housekeeping. Now you go to work, and you come home and have to do all the childcare. And that's presented as though it's a problem of too much feminism, when, in reality, that's a problem of not enough feminism. Like the fact that women are still societally expected to do the lion's share of the domestic labor, even though they go to work is not something that feminism created. It's like something feminism has not yet conquered, because like, what are the men in those homes doing? Like these like individual relationship dynamics, where like, men are not caring enough of the home labor like that feminism didn't do that. Right.
Lesley PsyD 13:20
And I think that's if you listen to a lot of the TRad wave content, it's these wives are these content creators talking about women and why they benefit and why they don't if they're not, you know, a part of it and then getting mad at other women and those women get who's not present in that conversation, the men, because this isn't in some ways, I mean, in some ways, this is very much about the man, right? That underneath all of this is this giant fabric of how we treat women in society, but also it makes these assumptions and then those assumptions are implied immediately. And so a lot of women that are vulnerable can get drawn to that and not really realize that they've skipped over that step, not them but the folks presenting this idea with them. There is no like, wait a minute, are those my only two options. And so then they are entering this kind of agreement or way of being without all the information.
KC 14:11
When I read her little snippet there. It honestly made me think about people that join cults, and how like we like to think that people who join cults must be like weak or stupid or ignorant and that's not true. It has more to do with like the cult finding that person at like a very specific time in their life where they're vulnerable. And like you said, like they're seeking belonging, they're seeking identity. They're already disillusioned with one idea that was presented to them right so Oh, look, I saw my mom do this. I experienced divorce I did it like I'm already disillusioned with a and the cult sweeps in and offers belonging offers identity and like you said, offers this like well, but here's option B, and it's very black or white and you just kind of Got scooped up in it? Like that's what I honestly thought about when I read that.
Lesley PsyD 15:03
And I think for many women, that is the experience initially, initially it is this relief, there is a sense of belonging is there a very tight knit groups that subscribe to these belief patterns that do, we'll get there in a second, I'll talk about interdependence. But what happens is eventually that breaks down. And when that breaks down, there is another psychological phenomenon happen happening is called sunk costs, which means if I have believed in this, and then I've initially experienced that, it's so great, and I now invested my whole life in it, because now I'm financially dependent, I no longer have any, I can't just get out, I can't just stop doing this, I'd have to turn everything over. If I think I want to maybe say this is not what I thought it was going to be, I have to do two things, I have to admit publicly that this thing that I was so adamant about I was wrong. And that's very challenging. And then I have to give up my interdependence, and my belongingness to do that, but I've invested too much. So sometimes, then you'll double down. And what you see sometimes in this content creators is, you find out later that they haven't any, that they order those groceries to come to the house, that that's not what they put out that maybe initially it was, but they reach a point where they can't sustain it, but they're not willing to let that be seen. They have to keep up now this image because it would be losing too much of themselves.
KC 16:25
Yeah, like the, you're saying that the picture of like domestic bliss, that they've held up to say, look how much happier I am, even as you know, the longer they go in that role, the less satisfying it is. Because you'll notice like never in these pictures are these women scrubbing toilets. It's always like baking bread, or like walking in the creek with their kids. And like those are like the parts of motherhood that like do look really good in a montage with like some music in the background. But like, those are not the parts of motherhood that take up the majority of my experience in motherhood. And I also think what interests me is what I experience when I watch these women and when I read these is that I feel like I vacillate between empathy for these women as people who were first disenfranchised by patriarchy, and then swept back up on the back end by patriarchy, pretending that they're going to lick their wounds for them and promise them all these things and then like, you know, throw them headfirst into the same problems. And I find myself really, really angry and disgusted with them for participating in the further manipulation and indoctrination and disenfranchisement of other women.
Lesley PsyD 17:49
I think that's where, as you know, use this word loosely, but as a community, a global community of women, we owe it to ourselves and each other to keep talking about issues like this. This is not the only way this is expresses itself, where patriarchy makes that full circle, especially within white womanhood. I mean, this has been a repeated pattern over generations of us, you know, fighting the power and then joining the power and then maintaining the power while saying we're not maintaining the power and wanting to stay in proximity to whoever is has the privilege. I wrote that down initially to that, in addition to belongingness, there is power in these relationships, a power dynamic and staying in close proximity to that benefits us in a way that would not benefit other people. And yet we're presenting it as if it would, that anyone can do this. And that's just not the case. Well, it
KC 18:43
is hyper individualized, like, the reason why you can't stay at home and like nurture your babies, if that's what you want to do, is not a failure feminism. It's a failure of like, it's patriarchy, like we have, especially in the USA, like we have no maternity leave, we have no like support for new mothers, we don't have those things. We don't have universal health care. And so it's like, it's like it's offering a solution to the problems that it created, especially with that nonsense about like women used to be safe. At what point in history were women safe, and they should be in their homes in their homes safe. I'm sorry, but like the majority of women that I know that are not safe from men are not safe from men in their own homes. Yes.
Lesley PsyD 19:26
And that I think is one of the other important parts that distinguishes we're not talking about stay at home parents. I homeschooled my kids for two years I would do it again. I've been in close knit interdependent female groups. I love it that's different than what we're speaking about. There is a mythology that comes with the TRad wife movement that even they know isn't the case. And that's the part that is dangerous for women is that it is enticing and bringing in women with the promise of this myth that if you follow this you will be safe They've, which then further isolate some of these very vulnerable women. And then that is passed down and passed down and passed down. There is not much that is safe about being utterly financially dependent in every way, and physically dependent with someone who is not physically or emotionally safe with you. And yet, that is where a lot of these relationships end up.
KC 20:20
You know, there's this, this idea, this concept called the No True Scotsman fallacy. And I'm almost afraid to like, give an explanation, because I don't know that I could get it exactly right. But it's basically like, if you point out that a certain idea, like if you criticize a certain idea, then people will just say, well, that idea that you're criticizing isn't really what the idea is, you see, if people were actually doing the idea, it would look like ABC, and I find as someone who so I didn't actually grow up in evangelicalism, I joined when I was 19, hot off the back of a troubled teen industry stay of being institutionalized. So I went from like one a high control group to like, oh, look, this is much more comfortable. And one of the things that they did was, first of all, it was one of the most loving places I'd ever been, everyone was kind to me, everyone was very generous. And when they talked about men and women, and the idea that men should lead and women should submit, it was done with the most like, and I don't mean apologetic, like apology. I mean, like, they made it sound really good. They would say things like when we say, when women when the Bible says that women are, you know, fragile, we don't mean fragile, we mean delicate, we mean that she should be prized, she should be, you know, listened to and when we say that a woman should submit and a man should lead. We don't mean that a man should just do whatever he wants, without listening to his wife, he should listen and he should serve and he should seek her counsel, and he should did it. And if you ever talk to somebody that has or believes in this dynamic and says, I submit to their husband, and you genuinely try to get them to drill down and verbalize what does that practically look like? It's a nothing burger. It's truly a nothing burger. It's, well, I let him make the final decision vote on what for how long? And what does that process look like? Well, we sit down and we talk about it, and he listens to my thoughts. And I listened to his thoughts and we come to a conclusion. But at the end of the day, if we can't agree, his word goes, and it's like, that's the only thing really at the end. And so when you point, this idea that you know, men should lead or whatever, when you point to the myriad of ways in which that goes wrong and is abusive and is unfair to women, the response from the like new Evangelical Church is always that's not a problem with men leading that's a problem with men being sinful. As long as you marry a godly man, you will be protected from that a godly man who's trying to be godly, like that's how you'll be safe. And I think it's so interesting how it refocuses the marginalization of women from a systemic issue into just an individual issue. As long as you're married to the right, man, it's safe for you to put all your eggs in that basket, it's safe for you to submit, it's safe for you to have no career, it's safe for you to not have your own money, it's safe for you to not make your own choices. And I just think that's fascinating. And
Lesley PsyD 23:20
that's part of patriarchy as like a system almost if we were thinking about it, like a marketing campaign, it's to create the myth that you belonging to this belongingness to this group is going to protect you because the system itself is what's good. But if you fail, that's on you. Or that's on him. That's not the system. So the system is only responsible for good things and never responsible for bad things. And that you see in cults in MLMs in just in big corrupt systems themselves and governments, right, so we can have a system that makes it almost impossible to live. And yet when people can't afford their rent, what the first questions we ask like, Well, how did you get a second job? And it's a very similar process and it is a trap some of the women I think not I think some of the women in the TRad wife movement, the official movement, know what's happening, know what they're doing. It's literally a myth that they're creating and curating for validation and benefit financially. Unfortunately, though, a large amount of the folks that are brought in by that myth are not entering under those pre taxes and then are getting stuck. And it's very scary for women we know across history, once we get stuck in a place where our choices are binary, and they have to do with fleeing. That is not a good place to be.
KC 24:36
And I do want to mention like there's so much about Trad wives and we couldn't possibly talk about all of it in this episode. Like we're barely and not even touching like the white supremacy sort of dog whistles that happen and origins we're not really even touching the issues around capitalism like so I just wanted to say and we're not touching even the issues around racism and I don't I'm the only reason I'm deleting that from white supremacy is the issues have like the history of labor, home labor who's actually doing the home labor inside these homes. So I just mentioned that to say we're not skipping over that we just like, only have so much time. And so we're going to talk about that on a different episode. Because I really was interested in drilling down into sort of like the individual psychology of what's going on, and maybe even the psychology of what how we feel when we respond to this. Here's the other thing, it reminds me of two things come to mind. One, it makes me think of pastors that were or like church staff. And it makes me think of people who work for Drug Rehabs, and here's why, because I've been sober a long time. And I lived and worked in the treatment world for a very long time. And I also worked for a church for a little bit. There's this interesting phenomenon that happens in both of those industries, where your personal life and belief system and identity and like private behavior is inextricably melded to your professional career. So much so that if you deviate from the ideology of your group, you will not have a living anymore, you will not have a job and maybe maybe not a home. So like, I would see this in, you know, church where like a staff, if they were to do XYZ, like they wouldn't, it wouldn't just be like, oh, man, that was sinful, let's go through a process, it would be like, Oh, now you can't work here, which, like you mentioned, like compounds that sort of like I'm trapped, but I can't get out, I have to keep going. And in the treatment world, it would happen a lot. Because if you relapse and any kind of relapse, not just the kind of relapse where oh, I've like turned my life into shit. And I can't show up for work. But even just oops, I went out and drank last night, you probably aren't keeping your job. And I feel like that's so similar, right? It's like, okay, my identity, and my belonging is like wrapped up in my livelihood and my survival such that like, I can't just change my mind about a few things. Imagine
Lesley PsyD 27:03
that you are a Trad wife, who is homeschooling one child, and then you decide to have a second child and your child has significant disabilities, and makes it almost impossible to meet that child's needs and your other child and homeschool and run the home, you are now in a position where you can't any longer say this is not working for me in this way, I need either extra help, or I need to be able to work outside the home so that we can afford. And you can't do that. Not for practical reasons. But because you would lose all of the surrounding supports, if you did that. And so you have to, ironically, stay isolated, and overtaxed and overwhelmed in your own space.
KC 27:45
There's also this aspect of like, nothing makes a person feel like they belong more than to belong to a group that is now experiencing like pushback, or that has enemies or naysayers or whatever like this like persecution process. Like I wonder sometimes like, Why do some of these women like in the montage, like even the way that they're talking about I mean, just from a communication study standpoint, you think, Who is this winning over? Like, this is not Hey, like, let me talk to some of the problems you're experiencing and how this might be the answer. Like they're certainly Trad wives that talk like that. But the ones that are almost like aggressive in their like delivery, where it's like, like almost self righteous. I mean, it's like, there's this aspect of Trad wife content that's almost rage, baiting, and it's like instant belonging, people have my back, I'm right, they're wrong, I'm being sought out. And then you like you feel so righteous.
Lesley PsyD 28:48
And that I think is a good place for when those of us who can't imagine being in that spot, this is a point of connection to say, Oh, this is something that's feeding something that all of us to some extent experience, and that's how insidious it is, is that it will find that spot in vulnerable women and give them not only a sense of belonging, but in quantity and a quality that they've never had. And it seems so extreme and all encompassing and yeah, it's a it's a dopamine hit. It's this is what I've always wanted. If you know we're not even talking about trauma responses that Hi, I wonder how many women in the TRad wife, the movement side that are really pushing the content or folks who need that, to regulate they need that fight because it reinforces the idea that I'm safe in this controlled high control group. I'm not vulnerable anymore to the I hear that a lot in the talk about what did we fight for? We were overwhelmed and so we retreated to this insular area. I think I think there's so many layers of control and mythmaking and power and identity. It's all wrapped up together.
KC 29:59
Part of This also like, whenever you talk about this, there's always people who will say, you know, why can't they just do what they want? Like, why do you care? So much? Like, aren't they just women making their own choices? Isn't that what feminism is about? And we won't even get into choice feminism in this episode, but the idea of like, you know, their choice to live this way, like, why do they not get to do that? Like, why is that open for criticism? Why is that any different than your choice to live differently? And this is something that even Trad wives themselves will deploy as defense, they'll come out and say, I'm not saying that you have to live this way. I'm just saying, This is what works for me. And I'm curious, like, how you think that that's different? Like, yeah, then someone else saying, Oh, I do I work and I do this? And that's what I do. And so who cares? Yeah,
Lesley PsyD 30:52
well, I would first reject that binary choice, right? So it can be both it can be both your choice and totally okay to make that choice. And not beyond criticism, not BBN criticism, it can be both of those things. And I think the answer to that is, once something is systemic, and it is harmful, and we see that over and over, and it's a pattern of behavior, and people are being harmed. That's not just a choice that that can be a choice on some level. But then we also are creating things that become then not choices. So this would be akin to everyone has a choice on how to parent their child. Yes. Everyone has a choice whether to spank their kid or not. Okay, technically, yes. But we're getting closer to everybody has a choice whether they're going to hit their kid in the face. Now we're at a point where you could say, I guess, physically, that's a fact. But like, we definitely shouldn't be hitting kids in the face. Here's a better way that doesn't harm this vulnerable population. It's a similar discussion, technically, yeah. But it's harming people. So we're going to talk about it.
KC 32:06
And I also think about like, I think, sometimes the like parasocial aspect, or like the fourth wall of social media, it's so good at disappearing, that we genuinely forget that like we're criticizing a content creator. Like if somebody is living a Trad wife life, and that is what they believe. I mean, I still have some criticisms, and some concerns, especially because children will be, you know, raised up that way, and they're probably proselytizing. But I think most of my ire is toward like, this person has a ring light out, that she's not just baking in her home. And we're like magically Truman showing in her home. And like hearing the thoughts in her head, like, this woman got out a ring light, in order to make a video to put on the internet, about with literal lies about that speak to vulnerable, hurting marginalized women, giving them miss information about why it is there, they feel broken and marginalized, lying to them knowingly or unknowingly about what the best answer might be snaring people into this ideology that we know doesn't end well. And we know that because I am the mother. I mean, I'm the daughter of a divorce attorney.
Lesley PsyD 33:36
And because we can, we can look back on history, right, this is not a new concept, a new way of speaking. I also think that it's important to make that distinction that it's folks who are curating things that they know to be at least not the whole truth, not folks. Living life, right. And there's a difference I think between let's say, like, I'm someone who makes parenting content sometimes. I'm not showing the worst parts of parenting. But I will say I am not showing the worst parts of parenting. Right? So I've tried to be very clear, because I will get tons of comments about you're the best mother you're the best mother ever. I wish I could be your mom and I will be very clear with people not on every day right that this is I don't want to create a false sense that if you do follow me and all things will be the same for you because that is a trap. And it's not a fair thing to tell people especially if it's not then financially motivated, which a lot of these accounts are
KC 34:45
Yeah, and even outside the world of like Trad with three I don't know if that's a word but that meets this like criteria right of submission to a man and the man should be Eat, you know, working and we have a biblical Christian religious reason for doing so there's a focus on modesty and purity culture. Even outside of that, I feel like there are a lot of ways in which that type of culture, which is like, first of all, the idea that it's like, let's go back to the 1950s. It's like, okay, we don't even have the time to talk about how wrong that is. But there are so many other I feel like trends and groups. And I think this is why this is important to talk about is because these kinds of traps, I feel like pop up in other areas.
Lesley PsyD 35:43
Absolutely, I think you see it, the the easiest one to see it right is is multilevel marketing. And I see it a lot because of my job, for cures for things that are not curable. So we see the same logic, you know, take your kids out of schools, stop their vaccines, connect with this community, take this supplement, drink the silver, and then you know, defend it so much. But at the root of exploitive systems is always money. So if you can tie, like if you're hearing Trad wife content, and it's really enticing, and you have that moment of like, how is their life really like that? Ask yourself if you can tie that rhetoric back to money? Is that how they're making their money? And if so, that's a big red flag. And that's, that's so for supplements, I think we could find a ton of things that that would, in some ways, parts of the mental health system can be like that. Certainly, the troubled teen industry has aspects of that, where they're beyond reproach, it's just something I think we're drawn to as humans. I
KC 36:42
also think that like, even if we would like other ourselves with you know, I would never be a Trad wife, I could never fall for that I could never, I feel like that part of what's happening there, which is like, definitely patriarchy is Mo is like an over identification with your gender, like your gender is important. And it is obviously an you know, one of our identity pillars or whatever. But there's this over identification with the performance of like, what that group says gender ought to be, or what that group says wife ought to be, or mother ought to be. It's like, there's this only one way to do this thing.
Lesley PsyD 37:21
And I think in a world where it is exhausting to be a woman, or a femme presenting person, it can be organizing and grounding, to have a set of rules where I now don't have to think, at least initially, and that that will typically stop that will wear off. But I do think that we're exhausted, it's an exhausting world to live in. And to get to play female to play that role can sometimes feel easier than trying to exist as an authentic woman in the
KC 37:49
world. It's funny, because I think a lot of listeners know that I've been like reading a lot of fantasy books, a lot of fantasy romance books. And so like, I'm relating so many things to that in my head. And one of the things that I've been like giggling about is just kind of like the joke, We all tell ourselves where like, we will read characters of these men that like if they were real life, men, they would be so problematic. The possessiveness and the violence and the sometimes even like some questionable consent stuff, right, like and the language that they use, and the sexualization and object and like, if that was a real person, we would not want that. And yet, there's something about it appearing in a book that is so enticing, and I genuinely think sometimes people are authentically confused at why they feel that way. And I feel as though it's actually a very interesting thing to talk about. And it really relates, and it really relates to Trad, wives, because there is something that is alluring, like you said, as a woman who is always a little bit exhausted, like a soul level at trying to be a woman in this world at the idea of just relax, have just it's taken care of. You don't have to be in control you don't have right but like the reason that nice in a book is because it's not the real world, literally, like we maintain full consent and autonomy while sort of vicariously experiencing whatever little emotional catharsis is like speaking to the parts of us that patriarchy broke, right? Or exhausts, and I feel like there's nothing wrong with that. I don't think especially if you're just you know, you're like, Oh, I know that's what's happening. But I feel like Trad wife content is a lot like that. But the difference is, is that like, it's genuinely trying to promise people that this will feel good. This dynamic will feel good. Look how pretty we make it. Look how romanticized we are. And you know, it'll just do it. It'll feel good and I feel like that ties into what you were talking about where it's like but it's not real,
Lesley PsyD 40:01
not a real thing. And if you don't feel good, you're doing it wrong. Yeah, something's wrong with you. So then, you know, that's where the marginalization of folks comes into is that you can't, you're selling a myth. And eventually people realize that that's what they've bought. So they have to either become a part of the myth, or they have to reject the myth, and it's very soul crushing to reject something that you thought was going to be what saved you in the long run. Yeah.
KC 40:24
And it also makes me think about like, there's a lot of ways in which even if you think you're not consuming Trad wife content, I feel like I could look back and be like, oh, man, like there. And this is not like a condemnation, necessarily, of people that would like make this content but like, really a lot of content about motherhood that does this very romanticized, like picture of, Wow, look how fulfilling this is, look how fulfilling this is a lot of people that do and listen, that's not just motherhood stuff. I mean, like, I think that there's a lot of people who will make content about other people will make content about sex work and gush about how fulfilling it is. And the reality is, is that like sex work, like motherhood is not inherently one or the other. Right? Like it is nuanced. There's lots there, the issue is painting it with this very generalized, all good, all bad stroke in order to like lure people in to this idea that like, you should step into this thing. And listen, if you want to be a mom, be a mom, if you want to be a sex worker, be a sex worker, but let's not allow ourselves nor allow ourselves to lure others into those kinds of decisions with these absolutely false narratives about what they're going to get. And
Lesley PsyD 41:40
do you ever does it ever strike you to that at the core of what we're talking about in terms of like specifically Trad wives is this idea that feminists are isolated, angry, overworked people, but that the actual solution to that would just be interdependence and community and you don't need to go to an extreme to do that. But we have to build community. And that is harder, and it would be sure you sure be nice if the men would help us build community as well. So the Treadway thing almost deletes the males, responsibility, and again, puts everything back on us to create this dynamic. But in reality, if we just were more interdependent with each other than all of the ways of being a woman would have room in that space. Yeah.
KC 42:24
And I mean, ideally, it is like such great propaganda, because if you can get women to believe that their exhaustion isn't the problem with capitalism, it's a problem with not being feminine enough, and they're being overworked isn't an issue with gender roles or sexism, it's an issue with not being feminine enough. If they're, you know, their health problems aren't a result of, you know, systemic in accessible health care, it's an issue with like, not, you know, living a life that God has ordained for you like all of that, right? Like, if you can get and people who are not familiar with this content may not appreciate how dangerous it is, but like the natural in point of these things, and you can find people saying this is women saying with their full chest, I don't vote, I don't believe women should vote, I don't believe women should have access to birth control. I don't believe women should work. I don't believe women should be able to wear XYZ or travel like that. And not in a dystopian, we're not talking Oh, this could go though. They're like it already is there. That's not the part they're going to publicize. But it is already there. That's what all that entails. And that obviously is a danger to all women. But yeah, if you can convince women to be more concerned with that individual issue and being quiet and staying at home and not like then yes, that would be that's like an excellent political agenda.
Lesley PsyD 43:45
And it's a great way to feel in control of a world that is out of control and a way for us to absolve ourselves from the responsibility of being activists for other women who are not able to be Trad wives, right. What about the women who are single mothers working three jobs because they absolutely have to, you know, it allows us to step away, create this little bubble and absolve ourselves of having to do anything for anybody else.
KC 44:11
And I want to end on this point that you made about community where you said, like, you know, we would have to create community because you know, lots of Trad wives, that's why they got kind of sucked into this community is this promise, but I think that to your point, we would actually be forced to create a community that isn't like homogeneous, like our homogenous however you pronounce that. I don't know. I've only ever read it but like, we would have to actually contend with people have different lives and beliefs and thoughts and feelings, as opposed to creating a community where like you believe like we do, or you get no community like we would actually have to listen, like hold on to our own identities in the face of other people's identities, which is like not what any of those sort of like pseudo communities are. are capable of doing so which is why eventually you will be forced to choose between your individuality and your community because you can't have both of those kinds of communities. Well, let's see. This has been fascinating. Thank you for delving into some of the psychology behind Trad wives with people like you and want to follow you. Where can they follow you? Currently
Lesley PsyD 45:20
just on the tick tock at Leslie, sidey, ls l EY, Psy, D. I'm hoping to be more active on Instagram in the future, but that's where you can find me for now. Awesome.
KC 45:29
Thank you. Thank you.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai