94: Making the Outdoors Inclusive with Parker Bushman

As usual, we are talking about all things mental health, wellness, and topics that matter to us both individually and systemically. I’m excited to be joined by Parker Bushman, the founder and CEO of Ecoinclusive Strategies and the Inclusive Journeys Guide. Ecoinclusive Strategies is a consulting firm that works with conservation-based organizations, environmental organizations, and nonprofits around diversity, equality, and inclusion. Join us!

Show Highlights:

• Nature should be free and accessible to ALL!

• The existing disparities in neighborhoods, tree cover, park access, and open spaces

• Racist roots of the conservation movement

• Messages of elitism among “outdoorsy” people

• Things that have been baked into our ideas about who gets to be outside and enjoy it–We need to break down the barriers!

• Thoughts about able-ism and outdoor spaces

• Parker’s consulting work with organizations doing wildland restoration, community engagement, and DEI work

• Building community through engagement, information, collaboration, and empowerment

• Systemic issues that prevent outdoor access

• Parker’s advice to everyone about finding outdoor activities that you enjoy

Resources and Links:

Connect with Parker Bushman and Ecoinclusive Strategies: Website, Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok

Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook

Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes.

• Transcript

  KC 0:05

  Hello Sentient balls of Stardust. Welcome back to Struggle Care, your favorite podcast. I'm sure. I'm your host, KC Davis. And we're going to talk about things that we usually talk about mental health, wellness, things that matter to us both individually and systemically. And I'm excited about my guest today I have Parker Bushman with me, who is the founder of eco inclusive strategies, and also inclusive journeys. That's right, correct. Yes,

  Parker 0:31

  that's correct.

  KC 0:32

  Okay. So Parker, will you just tell us a little bit about yourself? So we kind of orient and then I'm going to hit you with some question.

  Parker 0:38

  Okay. Yeah. So hello, everybody out there. I'm so excited to be here today. My name is Parker, I use a she pronouns located in Denver, Colorado. I am the CEO of eco inclusive strategies, which is a consulting org, which works primarily with conservation based organizations, environmental org, and nonprofits around their diversity, equity and inclusion issues. I also the co founder of the inclusive guide of inclusive journeys is the company inclusive guide, is our first product list of guide is kind of like a, it's like Yelp, but for inclusion. So people write places and spaces based on how they felt they were treated in relation to their identity. And then we look for trends on the back end, maybe a place is great for Asian men, but white women who use wheelchairs have trouble when they go into that space, we can see those demographic trends and then provide feedback to the businesses. And then of course, you can find me on social media under the handle Queen work, which is actually spelled K WENWE, R K. And Queen A stands for keep widening environmental engagement narratives. And I use my platform to provide representation for folks who usually aren't represented in a conversation about the outdoors, but also my platforms kind of eclectic, because I also talk about social justice issues. You also might see me out with friends. So yep, that's me.

  KC 2:15

  I am so glad to have you here. And we know when we kind of met for like our little brainstorming session about kind of what we're going to talk about one of the questions that's been in my mind since then, because I like to think about things individually and systemically. And, you know, I talk a lot about mental health. And I recently was meeting with my doctor, and one of the things that she kept pushing was, I really want you to get outside, I want you to get outside and just walk 15 minutes, just get outside for a little bit, I want you to get the sunlight, I want you to get the exercise. And that's not a new thing. And it made me think about how common that advice is from both mental health professionals, and physical health professionals. And I feel like one of the things that we don't consider is that there's a lot of baggage with that advice when it comes to who you're if you're talking about anyone except for a stable, you know, middle to upper class person living in a safe, walkable neighborhood with access to the leisure time that they have to take those walks with even the geographic location to be able to do that in the kind of weather that would where that would be appropriate and the family structure to which you don't have small children or you and I just I've been thinking about that so much since we talked and so I kind of wanted to start there with this idea that, you know, I think when people first hear you being dedicated to making the outdoors more inclusive, it's kind of like, oh, well, I wonder why that's why is that so

  Parker 3:52

  important of goodness, you brought up so many good points. And, you know, I'm trying to think of where I want to start. The outdoors has really been commodified. I'll start there. Like our we've been around for a long time as a species. We spent most the majority of our evolution connected to nature and to the outdoors. And nature is something that should be free and easily accessible. There's been a lot of research around how people's brains have developed, how our bodies have developed. And if you show people certain even like showing them pictures of the outdoors, like aI helps to boost your brain, your mental energy helps to lower blood pressure helps, like has all of these good things attached to it. We are supposed to be outside, you know, we're supposed to be connected to the outdoors. And we now live in a society especially if you're in an urban area where that is not really something that everyone has equal access. That's too. And it's been a long time. And a lot of history there, that has gotten us to this point where not everybody has equal access to right back in the day. It was seen as a, you were seen as a lower caste person and lower class person. If you had to work outside, right, there were people who were enslaved and were forced to work outside, so other people didn't have to. And when we no longer had, that there are still people who are forced to work outside, I shouldn't say that. It's over, because it's not. But what we did is we industrialize, we moved to cities. And then within urban environments, it became a commodity to be in an area where there was outdoors, we had traditional, you know, historical redlining and other things that made it so that certain neighborhoods didn't have the same things as other neighborhoods didn't have the same amenities as other neighborhoods. I live in Denver, Colorado, we have a you know, lots of different neighborhoods in the city, there is one neighborhood that is traditionally historically redlined. And has on average, a 2%. tree cover is located next to the state's only oil refinery. Meanwhile, we have a really an A is predominantly people of color. Meanwhile, we have a really wealthy, predominantly white neighborhood at South in the city that has on average, a 60%. tree cover has lots of parks, easy access, to get out to that nature. And you can see the differences not only in like the way the neighborhoods look. But also there's a difference in the quality of life. Because when you go to the CDC life expectancy map for the state of Colorado, the average state life expectancy is 80 years, in that first neighborhood that I mentioned, with little access to outdoors, near a big pollution source, their life expectancy is an average of 72 years. Now the other neighborhood that has a lot of tree cover access to parks and open space, more wealthy, their average life expectancy is 85 years. And so we're not just talking about like, Oh, it's a nice to have, but like our environment, the outdoors, those are all connected to our health and connected to our mental health, our physical health. And when you don't have as much access, you have a lower quality of life. And it shouldn't be that just wealthy people with money has that access, right? It should be for everyone because we're made to be connected to that.

  KC 7:55

  I think it's interesting when you think about like the flip of who used to when was being inside of privilege versus when it's being outside as a privilege, and how it also mirrors beauty standards. So you know, when we have a society where people are forced to work outside, and you're in a lower class, when you work outside, that's when you see that bigger bodies, more voluptuous bodies and fairer pale skin is the beauty standard, because that's who can afford to eat as much as they want. And that too can afford to be inside and out of the sun. And now that we've done a, you know, as you mentioned, it's a generalization. But now that we've done a flip, it's the opposite. So now we people who are the lower, you know, we still have people that will work outside, but the general public, you know, when you're inside a building when you work, right, so you're in an office all day, or you're in a restaurant, or you're in a retail store. And it's only the upper class, who has the leisure time to go out and be on the yacht to go out into the festival to not have to work. And so now we have and they can afford the diet foods and the trainers. And so now the beauty standard has flipped to be thinness, and Tam and the bleached blonde hair and it's like it really does even the beauty standards follow the money.

  Parker 9:15

  Yep. And it really is interesting, because, you know, everyone deserves that access. And we spent a good bit of our history trying to keep people from having that access. Like you know, I'm you're listening in and don't know who I am. I am a black, non binary fam. Plus Size and pansexual and my history right my ancestry. I hear a lot from people like black people don't do that. Like people don't go outside fat people I hear you know from the plus size community fat people. I didn't I we can't do that those aren't things that we're capable of doing it and none of that none of those things are true. But those are the messages we've gotten. And as far as black people being outside, there's a history there. Like I didn't visit my first national park until I was well into my 20s. But there's a history there, Jim Crow laws in the United States, were in effect until 1965. My father was born in 1950, Jim Crow laws, mandated segregation, especially in places of the former Confederacy, and in all places, including parks. And a lot of times what would happen is Park superintendents would get this pot of money. And they would say, Well, before we build a separate but equal facility for black residents, we need to see that they really want to be outside. And then lo and behold, they would say, actually, they don't have any interests. We don't need to, you know, build the separate facility. So there literally weren't a ton of spaces that black people could recreate outside safely. Here in Colorado, they actually created a black fly fishing resort called Lincoln Hills that kind of answer that because if you were black, and you went into the wrong place, recreating outdoors, you might lose your life. Right. And so Lincoln Hills was this historic black fight fly fishing resort that sold these plots of land, but it was the only thing of its kind west of the Mississippi River. Now in these other states that we'd like to say are well, there weren't segregation there, you know, so people could recreate in those areas was not true. Because even though segregation here in Colorado, it was against the law, to have segregation. It was illegal. But Colorado was also a hotbed for the KK. And people would there's been documentation of people going to like Rocky Mountain National Park, trying to visit black people and being turned away told that they could not recreate and visit in those spaces. And so we have this history of not being allowed into public lands, we have our forefathers who created the public land system, like Teddy Roosevelt, who was known as the conservation president, but had very racist views towards a black people and indigenous people and said, really racist things like democracy was a product of the Anglo Saxon race, that it was the white man's responsibility to Christianize and civilize other races. People like John Mayer, who we got our, you know, thinking about the wilderness from John Mayer describes wilderness as being these far off empty spaces. And that is actually until, you know, we kind of created that definition of wilderness. That's how we thought of wilderness, we were a part of it, we were a part of the nature, it wasn't something that was separate from us. And that's how indigenous people and a lot of people of the global majority that are still in indigenous spaces, feel about nature that they are a part of it. But John Mears writings and the writing of other people like him, were made to expel indigenous people from public lands that were then made into national parks like Yosemite, then we've got people like Madison Grant, who is known as one of the fathers of the conservation movement created, the red would save the redwoods leagues help save the Prague, horned antelope. And lots of other species, wrote the book, the passing of The Great Race where he described what he thought of as the passing of the white races decline due to these people of color, and that we needed to save the white race, like we needed to save the redwood trees. So he linked them together. And Teddy Roosevelt loved that book. You know who else loved that book, Adolf Hitler said that it was his Bible, right. And so we have these racist roots of the conservation movement that excluded groups of people from being able to recreate get outdoors, then we had that compounded compounded with systemic discrimination, like redlining. And then we have the stories that we're being told that we don't need to build these sites because black people and other they don't even want to be here has led to this lack of access, and now we get what black people don't like going outside, you know, they don't even want to be there. And that's not our thing. And we've internalized that message that that's not our thing when it's not true.

  KC 14:34

  You talked about the commodification, you know, I used to live in Austin, which is one of the like bigger cities in Texas that boasts probably the most green space and you know, people live there because they want to go to the hot springs and they want to, you know, do stand up paddleboarding, and they want to do the hiking and all that kind of stuff. And so it's kind of this hotbed of that which is interesting because it that rise comes alongside a lot of the gentrification of Austin And but in my experience like anytime that I have sort of dipped my toe in any sort of like outdoor sports or not necessarily sports, but like leisure things, if I think about like rock climbing or I think about hiking or camping, there's also this like intimidation factor where even I, you know, I'm a little bit afraid, like, well, what if I go and I look silly, because like, there are people that take this so seriously, and they have all this gear and you have to have a certain kind of shoes and a certain kind of clothing and a certain kind of am I gonna get sneered at if I do this? And what if I go? And I'm not good at it? Like, what if I want to take a hike, but I can't go very fast. And you know, I think about that there's like this elitism, sometimes amongst people.

  Parker 15:45

  Well, that's the message that we've been told, right? Like, I didn't think of myself as being very outdoorsy until I got older. Because all of the representation that I had seen of people who were outdoorsy, were predominantly white, predominantly male, predominantly straight size, and all of these things that I wasn't. And so, you know, I felt like, and every picture that I saw someone enjoying the outdoors was like climbing a mountain, I like doing all these things that like, I felt like I couldn't really do. And so it took me a long time to realize that actually, I was outdoorsy that I'd been outdoorsy for a while, because the only thing it takes for something to be an outdoor activity is very apt to be happening outside. Right. And I, you know, I think about now when people ask me about where my environmentalism comes from, and where my love of the outdoors come from, I point correctly to my family, you know, my grandmother, was it conservation if she didn't have all of the like, little, you know, doohickeys and things needed to like get down to zero raised waste to have all of your waste in a mayonnaise jar for a year like the challenge that people have been doing. But she was a conservation is and sustainability expert because of being very poor. Right? And so did things like reduce, reuse, reuse, reuse, you know, that T shirt became a sham became a dust rag became a like, on and on and on and utilize those things. She washed her clothes by hand, hung them up on the line, she had a garden, she did all of these sustainable actions, right? My mom took me on, on walks on trips on picnics. We like there was nothing to do, but walk around outside. Right? And we did that, you know, but it wasn't what was shown. And so often, you know, that's why I'm fighting for this representation. Because if you can't see it, it's hard to think that yeah, I can do that to that. It's okay. It's hard to believe that being outside is something that is fun. And I know a lot of people have those doubts about it. And my advice always is to start slow. And to just give it a try, you know, you don't have to set your own personal Summit. You don't have to get to the top of a fourteener. Right, get to what feels comfortable and feel comfortable turning around it. At any time walk a flat trail, it doesn't have to be about elevation, right? It's just about finding what feels good to you and connecting in a way that feels good and authentic to you.

  KC 18:34

  I saw this girl one time that talked about the outdoors. And I this is always stuck with me because she goes you know, I'm not outdoorsy, but I realized like I'm not outdoorsy, but I'm outside. See? Yes. All right, like I'm not that stereotypical, like, I don't want to go lightweight, backpacking, or I have to like saw my toothbrush and half so that I can walk, you know, days and days. She's like, but I love being outside. I want to sit on a blanket in a park and read a book, I want to walk a flat trail I want and that has always stuck with me. And I mean, obviously, it's the same word, but just it really highlighted for me like how much implied meaning we have with that term? Are you outdoorsy? Are you outdoorsy? And I saw a tick tock the other day of a woman who was talking about being on dating sites like like Bumble and those and she was like, you know, every time I see a man say that what he's looking for is a woman that's outdoorsy, that's fit and active, and outdoorsy, she's like it has become a red flag to me, because they don't mean someone who enjoys nature, who enjoys the outside that wants to go into nature. They mean a thin white woman who will never put on any weight and who will never have like high maintenance needs. And it's crazy how much of that is baked into our ideas about who gets to be outside who gets to enjoy outside And the other thing that I think is interesting about it is like I'm a person who it is like a running joke in my family that I have a very low tolerance for being physically uncomfortable. Like, I don't like to be hot, I don't like to be cold, I don't want to sleep on the ground. And I think there is a lot of black and white thinking, at least in my own mind about how being in the outdoors has to be like roughing it has to be high aerobic exercise has to be, you know, these things. And I just, I don't even know where I got that idea, and how I can begin to unpack it,

  Parker 20:36

  everybody. Everybody has that idea. You know, it's because of what we see in the media. It's what we see represented to us. And it's not the truth. Like I love a cabin stay, I love car camping, I love bringing my big old blow up off the ground below an air mattress that has a frame on it. So I'm up off the ground, right? Like those things, I think, really add to my experience in my enjoyment, I love cooking in the outdoors. And I bring a whole bunch of stuff cooking with me. But we've been fed these traditional images of what it means to be outside who gets outside, you know, and people carry those biases with them. I remember in so I've worked for many years as an environmental educator, it's actually been my whole career, but I fell into it, I didn't even know it was an option. Going into my career. And people never assumed that I was educated. I never assumed that I was the kayak lead, I used to lead kayaking tours, we will never assume that I was a kayaking guy, I'd be standing there with a bunch of boats waiting for people to show up. And they would get there and they'd look around and then like, Look everywhere eventually come up to me and be like, so who's leading our trip today, you know, and I'd be like, Oh, it's me, or, you know, I guess it's me, I don't know, I'm here with all these boats. I used to lead biking tours. And I noticed, you know, we had, we would take a group, we would have a sweep and a leader on the tour and then this group in between. And when the group got to spread out, the sweep would radio up to the leader that they needed to slow down so the group could get back together again. And whenever I was leading, if I slowed down, I would inevitably have someone write up to me and be like, Oh, are you getting tired, maybe you need to switch out with the person in the back. However, when some of my more slimmer, people were in the lead, and they slowed down, it would be like, Oh, those slow pokes in the back, I guess we got to slow down for them. So like the perception of who belongs in these spaces who can do what right is just deeply baked into our society, which is why we have to break down these barriers and show people representation, that they can do it too. And they do not have to be that traditional picture of what has been shown to us.

  KC 23:04

  I wonder too, if there's a correlation between cities and their public transit, because like, so I grew up in Dallas, and we just like historically have a really crappy public transit. Like we have the dark bus, which honestly, was really probably only established to bring people from South Dallas up to North Dallas to work as domestic workers. Like that's really the purpose of our transit. And so it doesn't work. Well. It's all bus systems. It's very, I thought it was kind of confusing when I tried to use it a few times. And in Dallas, at least it is. So if you're listening to this, and you're from a city that does public transit, you're from New York, you'd like I cannot emphasize how in a lot of the southern cities like no one rides public transit, unless you are poor, you just don't do it. And it will take you so long to get somewhere Oh my It will take you hours just to get to work. And you will spend a lot of time standing outside in very hot weather or in very cold weather. And I wonder if there's this like inverse relationship to like, the more you force people to be outside, just trying to get somewhere where you're uncomfortable, you're in your work clothes, you know, it's eating up your time so that you're tired and you're hot or you're cold or you're all this who would then want to go outside for leisure. Like if I do that all day when I get home when I'm getting in bed, I'm turning on the TV I want to run right like I wonder if those things are connected versus Oh, I'm I'm at home all day or I can quickly do a car ride and so I have energy and motivation and time to go out and do a quick bike ride.

  Parker 24:48

  energy, motivation and time are set are huge things you know, and you know, it's just so funny to wear society and not funny. It's intentional the way our society has been set it up and it really keeps people on the lower end of it, it just so pressed and abused and without the opportunities to have that time, you know, if you are working, I hear people talking about, oh, poor people, they just don't want to work. And then I'm like, I have several friends that are working multiple jobs, you know, oh, work harder, work smarter, not harder, right is then what comes back. But this like idea that, if you, you know, are on the lower socio economic class, that's all you should get to do just work and sleep. And if you, you know, and it's your fault, if you're in that space, rather than it society and the way that our society has been set up. Also, when you talked about the public transportation, it really clicked something in my brain, I have a friend who was working in LA, and they have a program really trying to help get families of color, low income families of color into the outdoors. And the way the program worked is that they would partner with groups that were already working with those families that families already trusted, and say, hey, we'll take your group out on this trip to these public lands, we'll give a little lesson environmental lesson. But we also will give you maps for how they can get back using public transportation and vouchers for public transportation to be able to get back to those spaces. And as they were designing those maps and trying to figure those things out, what they found was that man, and some of these neighborhoods that have like lots of green space, there are no bus lines, the bus goes pass it, but doesn't stop at it. And when they tried to inquire about it, they found a couple of different things. And it had to do with class. So people on the end of the line where there was a bus stop was a very wealthy neighborhood who could afford domestic workers. And so they were made lines going from in, you know, the middle of the city, out to these areas where domestic workers were working in the homes, people along the way, were middle class, and they didn't have the money for domestic workers. And so they petition that like, okay, you can have your line put in but they can't stop in our neighborhoods, we don't want that element in our neighborhoods. And if public transportation is supposed to be for the people who need it, why are the people who don't use it, right, influencing how where bus stops go, where, who has access to public transportation and as access to things that are supposed to be considered public lands right. In Denver, what we see a lot of and I'm sure it's in other places is we have really amazing public parks, in the middle of neighborhoods that have no parking around them. So if you are, if you live in a neighborhood, you can add in their wealthy neighborhoods, you can have easy access to this lamp. But if you are outside of the neighborhood, it is not easy to come in and find a place to park and go and enjoy those places. So yet another level of gatekeeping for who gets to go and experience those spots and who does not.

  KC 28:20

  One of the other things that I have learned and this is like a slightly different, you know, demographic, but in talking about all the isms, I think when we think about ableism, and outdoor spaces, I didn't really appreciate how much or how challenging it can be when you have outdoor spaces because there is this idea that like it's the outdoors, it's not supposed to be accessible. What do you mean, we should think about people, you know, being able to do that. And what when people talk about, you know, I've been reading up on like inclusive playgrounds and inclusive parks and making sure that children of all abilities and people of all abilities can access public parks. And there's a lot of emphasis on the playground equipment and you know, whether a wheelchair can get on and whether you're doing a flat surface or the woodchips as the mom of an autistic child. One of the things that gets overlooked the most when it comes to accessibility to public places for my kid is fencing. Like a lot of autistic children. They run as a way of stimming they don't have the same social like cueing to know, hey, stop, hey, stay in this area, hey, this is where kids are playing right where they want to go touch the trees and things like that or they go run and, and it was amazing how much our outdoor spaces shrunk for what was safe for us. Especially because I have two kids, right? So you're trying to keep an eye on two kids, one of which might be a runner, and we could truly only go to parks that were fenced in, and even then you have to post up at the fence line at the gate. because parents are not good about closing it behind them, but it's things like that, that

  Parker 30:04

  I feel that said why I've got two kids with autism of two of my three kids have been diagnosed with autism. And yes, it's something that I do that I never even thought ahead voice, right put word words to, but that access is so important and making a space, we went to a wonderful playground the other day that had those some of those accessibility things, things for kids with neurodivergent things for kids with wheelchairs and other mobility disabilities. And that was really cool to be in that space, and to be a place where I felt safe having my kids in that place because the things were designed for them.

  KC 30:50

  So let me take a slight shift to you know, when you do consulting for organizations, what kind of organizations you know, come to you, and what does that look like? I mean, if I run a park, if I run a national park, if I run any kind of outdoor space, you know, what kinds of things are you looking at for them? That maybe they thought, oh, I never even thought about that being an access issue.

  Parker 31:12

  Yeah, it's been a variety of organizations that I've worked with primarily orgs that are trying to do like either restoration of public lands I've worked with, you know, even the National Park Service, and different folks within the National Park Service, I've worked with, you know, volunteer organizations that go out and do wildland restoration. So a variety of organizations, and, you know, sometimes orgs, when they come in, and they're like, hey, we want to do some some types of trainings, we want to talk about, you know, the history of public lands, and how we can have a better understanding of kind of where we are today. But how we got here, right? Some organizations are like, we need help with community engagement, and how do we really clue into communities and build with them in a way that is really inclusive? Sometimes folks are working on strategic plans, or, you know, sometimes I get brought in for like a keynote, I was in Texas last year for the children and nature, Texas Children and nature conference to do their keynote, and talk about some of these issues. So it really depends on the organization, and what they are hoping for as to kind of where our journey takes us.

  KC 32:31

  So when people would do like restoration, or what let's go with, like the community engagement, one, if someone comes to you, and they're saying, hey, like, we can't seem to get our community engaged, like what kinds of things should we be looking at? What are some of the things that you are able to like point out to them that maybe wouldn't be intuitive to them? Because obviously, it's not intuitive to them, or they wouldn't have come to you? Right? Yeah,

  Parker 32:52

  you know, it's funny community engagement is not as easy as people think it is. Because they don't realize that they have to build with community, a lot of times, you know, folks go with kind of this top down approach. They're like, yes, we have this thing. We have this park, we have this space, and you all should want to come and be a part of it, right. But they don't realize that community engagement is a process of relationship. Building, you have to build community, you have to think about also community as centering the people who are part of the community in order to engage them, you have to find out what the community wants, what gifts the community are bringing to the table, because a lot of times folks go from a deficient, they think that communities are deficient, and they are the ones that are bringing what the community needs at a table. But rather than defining community by like a deficiency, and try to fix them, folks need to think about the assets of a community, the knowledge, the skills, the talents, the passions, and the relationships, and how those things can be used to help solve complex issues within the community. Oftentimes, rather than asking, what can the community do itself? What do they need some help in from the organization? The organization starts with? What do we do best? And how can we bring that to the community, but the community doesn't even you know, sometimes need it or want it. And there's like a spectrum of that collaboration, right? One end of the spectrum is informing the community, right? Hey, this is what we're doing. We want to come to this event, right. The next is consulting the community like, this is what we're doing, but we need some feedback from you. Right? The next is like involving the community. So hey, we have this idea. We want to involve you in the decision making process. And then we have the collaborative approach, which is how do we create a long term partnership with the stakeholders, and figure out how they need to help create the solutions. And then we will implement the solutions that they create. And then the last is empower. And that's like, how do you have the community take leadership by implementing the actions themselves to address the issues within the community. And a lot of times organizations are at the inform, they're like, We have a great idea. We're a great organization, and here is what we want to bring to you. And then they're like, why we only have one group of people that are always showing up, and we're not representative of our community. And we don't know why Well, you haven't connected with the community, you know, the people who show up are the ones you've connected with this whole time. And you haven't taken the process to collaborate and empower other community members. When I

  KC 36:05

  wonder how many times you know, you can be an expert in whatever outdoor issue or space you're trying to bring into a community, whether it's, oh, we want to get a program going, or we want to put a park in here, or we want to start a you know, a service, we want to clean this up. And we want to do some conservation in this area of this, whatever. But like, how much if you think of community engagement primarily in terms of informing how do we get the word out? How do we get people to listen to us getting the word out? You know, and it reminds them, but like, there's so many reasons why something may not be quote, unquote, working, or the community may not be engaging, where like, your expertise was not informed by the issues? Like, what am I trying to say, I'm trying to say that like, the reason people may or may not be utilizing an outdoor space or service or offering might have nothing to do with your particular expertise in that space. And you know, what it reminds me of, and I cannot for the life of me remember what movie this is, or maybe it was a TV show where there was a it was a lower income neighborhood, and there was a park and the park was like chained shut, and this guy was like, Oh, I'm going to this is so sad, these kids should be able to play, I'm going to make a difference. And he went and unchained to the park. And he noticed that the lights were out in the like, the lighting would be like, Oh, I'm gonna fix these lights. And he was so proud of himself for like, giving this access back to the community. And what he did not realize is that there were so many systemic issues of poverty, that the residents themselves, were shooting out the lights and chaining them shut, because people were moving into the park to use drugs and people were moving into the park and using it for purposes that was making it not safe for the residents that wanted to be there. And it was like, if you don't stop and ask, you know, and you go, Well, how do we get the word out? How do we get them involved? That's all and it's just like, it has very much that sort of like white savior feeling of we'll just give this access this thing, as opposed to stopping and going. What are the other systemic issues? overlaying this access issue?

  Parker 38:11

  Yes, that part. And you know, that's such a huge thing. A lot of times folks will ask me, when I'm talking about the outdoors, they're like, you know, it's just nature and like, what are you trying to say? Like, nature is oppressive nature is racist, or sexist, or fat phobic or whatever. It's just trees. I'm like, No, the trees aren't oppressive, right. But there are people who manage those spaces and their social issues that are involved in people's access. And like during COVID, we told everybody to go outside, right, like go outside, it's healthier, get outside there. It's a huge message of how you could safely not go stir crazy, you know, you get to get outside. And what they neglected to say like in the neighborhood I talked about earlier, right? There is gang violence, there is other things that are going on also being that it's close to the state's only oil refinery, it has terrible air quality, right. Also, there's been studies on so you know, lead poisoning is big, what has been big in our nation's history, and we've done a lot of work around taking it out of kids toys and out of paint and homes. We're still working. There are still so many houses that have lead pipes and they don't even know it. But another area that lead is coming in is through the exhaust from traffic, right and from fuel. And what they are finding in neighborhoods like that one that I was mentioning is that when there is a lot of road traffic, it's gotten major highways that go by it and lots of diesel fuel and other fuels coming out. What happens is that lead from the fuel settles down in the dust and the dirt on the ground. And then we tell kids to go outside and play in these neighborhoods, they go outside, and they kick up that dirt and they breathe in lead, which is why even though lead poisoning levels went down across the nation for our nation's kids, it went down much less for black and Latin they children because of their exposure in other ways. So it can sometimes it's a they get outside, right, and we address those issues. We have to address all of these other issues and not just say, What are you trying to say? Anyone can walk outside? Are the trees racist? No, there are bigger issues there.

  KC 40:44

  No, but the ground might poison you.

  Parker 40:45

  They're gonna poison you. Or like, I have a friend who takes kids of color up into the mountains, they are a white person, and they are regularly told things like, I come here to get away from the urban element, I come here, why don't you bring them up here? You know, it's already crowded enough. Why would you bring that kind of those kinds of kids to this area, right. So they get messages like, they're also as the messages that the people who have traditionally had the privilege of being in this space is feel like it's theirs. And when other people come in, you know, they get told, like you don't belong there. I remember going to visit as in LA, I was visiting a friend who said, Let's do a sunrise hike, meet at this park, I drive up to the park. And they neglected to tell me that if you arrive before sunrise, the gates aren't actually open. And so I pulled up unknowing behind another vehicle who was going in, and this gentleman got out the unlock the gate was a white guy comes up to me and he's like, look, you know that it's not open yet. You're not allowed to come in and use the I'm going in, but you're not allowed to come in and use the parking lot until after nine. And I was like, okay, that's okay. I just, you know, can you access the park though? Before that time, you know, I'm supposed to be meeting someone. And he looked at me looked at my rental car and looked at me and said, Well, yes, technically you can access the park. If you're not doing anything nefarious, right. Later in the day, I saw that person who was a park ranger, right? And so they like I was like, do you say that to everyone? If I had shown up and I was like a thin, white male with like a backpack in my side seat, but you've been like, oh, yeah, you know, you just can't access it. Or would you have told him? Oh, well, technically, you can access it. If you're not doing anything nefarious. And these spaces, we get these messages that we don't belong. And then people are like, Why don't people have access? They can just go, you know? Well, Parker,

  KC 42:51

  thank you so much for your time today. Can you share again, if people want to learn more about you, or they want to follow you on socials where they can do that?

  Parker 42:58

  Yeah, thank you so much for having me here today. And you know, well, first thing I want to say is, I want to encourage people if you haven't tried getting outdoors, the outdoors is for everyone. And it is a special place. And if you can find the activity or the thing that resonates with you, you know, do that it doesn't have to be climbing up fourteener or skiing or any of the other things because you know the outdoors is for everyone in any way that you choose to connect. If people want to find me They can find me on social media under the handle Queen work on Instagram, Facebook and Tiktok queen is spelled K WENWER K. They can also look up eco inclusive strategies at Eco inclusive.org Awesome.

  KC 43:48

  Thank you so much.

  Transcribed by https://otter.ai