97: In Defense of Video Games (for parents of gamers) with Derrick Hoard, LMFT
We are back for Part 2 of a fascinating discussion with Derrick Hoard, a licensed marriage and family therapist, TikTokker, and video game aficionado. We left off in last week’s episode talking about how some people rely too heavily on gaming for their coping skills in life and how “mindful gaming” can go beyond simply pushing buttons and help in many ways. The conflict over video games extends beyond partner relationships and definitely leads to challenges for parents and their kids. Let’s explore this topic with Derrick!
Show Highlights:
Myths and misconceptions about video games from a parent’s perspective
Being mindful means using as many of the five senses as possible and being purposeful.
Video games can lead to emotional connection, learning, and many problem-solving skills.
Derrick’s perspective on gamers who play a variety of games: good or bad?
Thoughts on the benefits of games like Skyrim and Mass Effect
The value of a collaborative approach by parents who get involved in a child’s gaming life respectfully and appropriately
The benefits of video games for neurodivergent kids, overall mental health, and therapeutic approaches
The key for parents of gamers: accepting video games as ways to promote mindfulness, deep conversations, true interest, growth, skill development, curiosity, and maturity
Resources and Links:
Connect with Derrick Hoard: Website, TikTok, and the Mindful Gaming Podcast
Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook
Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning
We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes.
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KC 0:00
Hey hello sentient balls of stardust, welcome to struggle care where we talk about all things individual and systemic that affect your mental health and well being. And I am back today with Derrick cord, who is a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and a gamer. Derek, thank you for coming back.
Derrick 0:20
Thank you for having me back. I'm glad to be here.
KC 0:22
So we hit this really interesting point at the end of our last discussion about how, you know, when someone is maybe struggling and they're needing some new coping skills, and they feel like maybe they're like over relying on gaming, that the answer doesn't necessarily need to be, oh, do less gaming as much as it maybe needs to be this move towards mindful gaming, where they can try to challenge themselves through gaming, learn new skills, through gaming, kind of fill some of those skill gaps with gaming. And I wanted to kind of talk about that some more and specifically kind of transition into talking about like, kids and parents, because I think that, although I've seen gaming be an issue between partners, it's also often a conflict between kids and their parents. So, you know, tell me what you see as maybe some of the myths or misconceptions about video games from a parent's perspective.
Derrick 1:20
Yeah, I think that sometimes, you know, I know for me growing up, my mom did not like that I played so many video games, so a variety of reasons why she didn't like it. But yeah, and I think one of the biggest problems is that people think that gaming is lazy and a waste of time, and you're not doing anything valuable. You're just sitting staring at a screen pressing buttons. And like, I can understand how on the outside looking in, it might look like that. Just like if you look at someone's house who might be a little bit cluttered, I can understand if your first thought might be, well, they need to clean their house, or why are they not doing it. But if you could just take a moment and understand. And if we valued mental work as much as we value physical labor, I think that people wouldn't have that viewpoint of it. Video games are one of the most immersive forms of storytelling that you can experience in any medium period. I like to tell people when they ask me, and when I talk with parents about it to try to help flip their mind, I'm like, your child is living 1000 different lives. I heard this at a TED conference, when your child is living 1000 different lives. They're hearing 1000 different stories. They're learning about empathy, they're putting themselves in other people's shoes. So trying to make that that switch and show that there is a narrative being told here, instead of you're just sitting pressing buttons, I think is one of the biggest shifts that I like to make.
KC 2:42
It's interesting, because you know, if I think about other like hobbies, that produce results that are a little more visual, like if I'm into crocheting, or quilting, it'd be like, oh, all you do is sit at a table all day in front of a sewing machine. But because I'm producing maybe like quilt after quilt after quilter outfit after outfit after outfit, it's like, oh, you're creating art. So it's interesting, my brain kind of went to that parallel. Yeah, it's
Derrick 3:07
something where they feel like you have to be providing some sort of value or productivity, something that you're producing, even though there are some streamers making in central figures and hours to play video games, but that's another story. Yeah,
KC 3:21
well, I mean, we have universities now that have, like, Esports teams, which, you know, if you think about how many of us, you know, like we think about, like, people letting their kids play football, it's like, well, I don't know, that like rattling our brain around is like that much more admirable than sitting in front of a video game while you're
Derrick 3:42
developing fine motor skills. You know, just saying, yeah.
KC 3:47
So I think that, you know, as when I remember being a kid, I think what was hard for me was if I found something that I was good at, it became like, like, I used to talk about how things would be like a driftwood in a sea of insecurity. Where like, all I wanted to do was that one thing I was good at that one thing that made me feel competent, that one thing that made me feel, you know, comfortable. And as a kid, you know, I'm kind of shying away from other experiences that might be helping me gain different kinds of skills. I think that's a lot of parents, like, you know, you have the parents that are like, Oh, it's a stupid thing to like, but I think even outside of that, I think some parents worry, okay, if my kid is really into this, if this is all they do, you know, are they going to miss some skills that they need some social skills they need or maybe some like relationship skills, or emotional regulation skills, you know, if I see maybe my kid is always into this one game, that's always a competition, and he's always really angry, you know, when they're not winning. And you know how I think, you see a lot of people talk about how we can get a kid to do something else than game but I love this idea that you You have about mindful gaming? Like how could a professional or a parent who might see that kind of kid enter into that interest of video gaming to help them gain more skills? Yeah.
Derrick 5:11
So before I say that, I did want to speak to something when you were talking about, you know, social interaction with games, and can you gain social skills, some of the best friends I've ever met in my life have been people that I play games online with. And when I say best friends, I mean, will call and check on me, you know, like, weekly, you know, like friends that like, I will remember that, like, every gamer, I guess I just want to speak to the social aspect, because that is the biggest myth is some of the biggest communities are online, or in that the party chats that we have together. And yeah, you got to be careful, because there's definitely some radicalization that happens in the wrong sort of groups, like you really need to monitor who your child is talking to, and knowing you know, who their friends are. But you know, you can create and cultivate, and they have to solve problems, they have to do all of these things you're talking about, like solving, you know, interpersonal problems with other kids. We have those same conversations, it just sounds like, hey, that weapon dropped for me. You've been picking up this one the entire time, can we discuss why it is that I never get any of the good loot? But like all of those conversations and things happen in like, I know, I need to answer your other question. But this is just coming up. Like sometimes, you know, I've heard of like kids suddenly becoming depressed, you know, after playing video games and their parents, you know, they're trying to talk to them. And like, when you lose friends online, like if you have someone that you used to play with all the time, and then they stop getting on, and you look and see it's been 20, you know, days since they last logged on, or you know that there's a lot of like, deep emotions that you feel around the hobby of gaming. And I think if again, people knew a little bit more about it, they might understand. And so I guess moving on to the mindful gaming perspective, which is really important. Yeah, you can do a lot of things mindfully, you can watch a movie mindfully, you can read a book mindfully, you can listen to music mindfully. And you can also do those things while claiming to be multitasking, and not really giving any one thing the attention that it deserves. So when we talk about being mindful, we're discussing doing things with including as many of our five senses as possible, and cutting out all distractions and being immersed in the process. And while doing that, while being immersed in that process. That's where we can do things like problem, solve, learn and refine new skills. And even just, you know, everything doesn't have to always be fixing something even just for pure enjoyment, because that in and of itself, can help rejuvenate your body. And there are some gamers that play mindful. And there's some gamers that play mindlessly, where they're not paying attention to the story. They're not taking in the scenery around them. There was one time I was playing a game called Detroit Become Human. And there were people that had played it forever. And they were watching me play. And as I was playing, I don't run fast in the game. It's a beautiful game about a future where androids take over everything. And everyone has an Android in their home, and the Android start to become sentient that is aware of the fact that they're Androids and just the stories in that game, how people have lost their jobs, how people turn to violence, the way that they treat their animals, like all of it's super interesting, but it's a very, very beautiful game. And as I was walking through, I kind of stopped during my gameplay. And I started looking at the window signs because for sale, they had a jacket that was like an AI jacket that automatically adjusted to your heat and temperature. And it was like $79 I was like, why is that jacket so cheap in the game. And the people in the party were like, I have never, ever even noticed that I never even stopped to take a look at that. I'm like, if you're not paying attention to small stuff like that, imagine what other parts of the story and things that you're missing. And so when you play mindfully, you're playing with intent, you're playing with purpose. It's not just something you're not doing it on autopilot. And you can stop me when I say too much. But when you get on you can is that a stopping point? Am I going to great. So when you're playing when you're playing on autopilot, this happens a lot in the fighting game community, which, if you do have a child that plays video games, one of the best ways to teach them anything is to teach them a fighting game. Like that's a whole other story. But there's this thing called being on autopilot. And you see it a lot in fighting games where people are fighting one another. And you're not really thinking you're just going through the motions of what you normally do. And yeah, it'll work for a little bit. But eventually, I as the other fighter am going to catch on to that and I'm going to start doing things differently. And if you don't know how to be mindful and see that the last time you did that move there. I did this it's like playing Rock Paper Scissors the last time you chose rock and every time it's the third round of Rock Paper Scissors, you choose rock if you're not being mindful while you're playing rock, paper, scissors and it's just a habit that you have. Someone else can take advantage of that and exploit it so you don't want to play video games on autopilot. You want to have a purpose, a reason and then Tension settling before you start playing, and then just play, play for real play.
KC 10:10
You mentioned like different kinds of games having different strengths and being helpful in different ways. Do you think it's important as a gamer or as a mindful gamer? To have like a variety of games that you engage in?
Derrick 10:23
Yes, and no, but mostly Yes. Sometimes there are games that are just complete games that will contain like, all of the aspects of everything that you need to engage in the various aspects of mindfulness. For example, I think Skyrim is one of those games, I think everyone might not know how to play Skyrim. I've never played it, but I think people have heard of Skyrim, I would hope. But if you have it, it is a game by Bethesda Game Studios. It's set in this massive fantasy world. And if you don't play video games, I can't express to you what massive is, it's like sitting down playing a video game of all of the Lord of the Rings, movies, and having access to all those places. And you can go to them at any time and talk to anyone that you want to, and everyone has something for you to do. Like, it's very difficult to really express that. But in that game, there's a variety of things you can do. You can go on quests, you can you know, go search for armor, you can go through dungeons, you can do those things. And also you can set up a house, and you can cook meals, and you can prepare meals to take with you on the road. There are several books in the game legitimate books that you can sit down and read in the game, while you're playing. You can go pick flowers, if you'd like to, so that you can create potions for yourself. Or if you want to, you can just walk through the world and listen to the music on your horse, you can go do things that like that you would do in regular life and may not be able to for some reason, or maybe it's a rainy day, so you can't go for a walk. And so I do think that games that are complete like that, mostly, an open world RPG is what they're called games that are complete like that, you can use that game. And sometimes you just find a world and you want to stay in it. That's how I feel about the Mass Effect series. I love that game, I replay it at least six or seven times. It just I think about it, and I just get an edge and I start over again. It's basically Star Trek, but you can find a game that fits those needs for you. And let's say you need to work on the skill of getting outside of your comfort zone, maybe you have a tendency to go to the same places in your area all the time. Or maybe you have a tendency to eat the same foods, or maybe you have a tendency to listen to the same music and you're starting to feel like your life is a little bit boring, or you're starting to feel like your life doesn't have been a guess where it typically gets to. It's hard to make meaning when you're not introducing anything new in your life to make meaning with. And so sometimes it's important to branch out and play a type of video game that you wouldn't normally play. And when you do that, it gives you an opportunity to experience what you're like when you're frustrated when you're good at something or when you have to learn or all of those things that you never really have an opportunity to look at. Most of the time, whenever you want to have those skills of being able to make mistakes, being able to take correction, being able to be frustrated, you get in situations that you wish you had the skills already to use that you're trying to practice. But in video games, you get so many opportunities to practice so many skills in so many different situations. And one of those skills is trying something new on a relatively easy basis. Like it's a new thing. So like yeah, if you play shooters all the time, try racing games, you play racing game all the time. Try realtime strategy. I think everyone should play fighting games. And that is I'm going to die on that hill, everyone. Everyone, well, there's
KC 13:48
a lot about safe risk. And I'm thinking about parents who, you know, maybe worry about oh, my kids isolating and you know, you already brought up the social aspect of it. Because a lot of this seems like before you go to your kid with concerns, you we should listen to them about what is it about gaming for them that they're enjoying, that is helping that feels helpful to them that feels comforting to them. It also brings up a question for me of you know, how many parents out there have tried the tactic of sitting down with their kid and saying, you know, can you teach me how to play this game? You know, I hear parents, you know, oh, I want to spend time with my kid. But they're always on their video games. But I'm wondering if maybe a tactic to try is to see if you can be interested in what your kid is interested in.
Derrick 14:34
Right? Yeah. And I think that you know, no child should have a video game system that their parent hasn't thoroughly inspected and looked at and enabled parental controls to control how long you're on the game for automatic shut off to make sure that there are certain games that they can't play. Like I would hope that every single time their child buys a video game or gets into a video game with the parent is going through, doing research on the game looking at it, seeing who makes it, seeing what it's rated Seeing who they're talking to randomly checking in listening. I hope that that's happening all the time. You know, I think that's a really important first step. Before we even talk about any of it. I can't believe I missed it. But I do that sometimes I miss important first steps. Yeah. But
KC 15:13
the way that you talk about it, Derek sounds more like I am interested, and I want to be involved. And I want to parent you. And I think sometimes parents come at it almost from like a policing standpoint, of I'm kind of looking down at gaming. And this is so inappropriate, and this is going to rot your brain. And let me make sure this is okay for you. And it strikes me as that there's a way to be involved in a child's gaming life that is respectful, like you're still being a parent, like you said, you're still making sure that they're sleeping, and you're still, you know, trying to make sure that maybe hyper focus is, you know, not getting too much in the way of sleeping and eating and caring for themselves and making sure that content is appropriate for their age level. And that who they're talking to is safe, it strikes me that there's a way to do that. That is like a true interest versus like a policing. Because when I think about like baseball families, right, like, I think we all know, a family who's like their kids really into baseball, they play club baseball, and like, that's what that family does. Like, that's what they do on the weekends, despite the fact that like, it's just the kid playing. And yet there's this involvement and this respect. And yes, they want to be there with their kid. And yes, they're going to make sure that coach is respectful. And yes, they want to monitor how they're getting along with their teammates. And yes, they want to help them with skills development. But it strikes me that parents could take that maybe it would be more beneficial to take that kind of like stance when their kid is really into video games. But
Derrick 16:41
yes, no. So take a more collaborative approach with your children with gaming would be super helpful, it'd be really great to just even even you would be amazed at how happy some children would be. If you just sat next to them, you don't even have to understand what's going on. You don't even have to know this make sense, you know, make comments on it. Kind of like you know how, when you're on a date with someone and they show you a movie, you're not really super into it, but you like them and you don't want you know, like you show interest in that you can do the same thing with a video game. And what I promise is going to happen is some of you are going to be like I didn't know these stories were like that, like, there are some man some movies don't have anything on the stories that are in games. But yes, taking that collaborative approach. Showing that is something that you want to be a part of, it doesn't have to be policed, it's not going to steal them, or take them away from you or take them away from other interests or ruin their prospects that getting in college might actually make them better now, you know, but there's a lot of like, demonization of video games, it has been, it's an easy scapegoat. It really is, it's very easy. It's an easy thing for sometimes politicians to point to, and say this is what's causing the problems in our youth and society. Like there's a lot of, you know, just misconceptions about it. But if you really sit down and take the time to understand and even just watch your child play, and see the emotions that they go through. And even that can be helpful for, you know, being able to talk to them about how they express anger or how they express joy, all of those things. So yeah, I think that collaborative approach to describing is definitely the one that we should look at
KC 18:04
now my yard, people are making noise outside. So we're even one of the things you mentioned on the last episode we did together that I really appreciate it was talking about how like, when you're experiencing stressors in life, it's you know, what makes video games so immersive. And sometimes all consuming is like sometimes it's the only place that you feel competent, the only place that you feel accepted. And I think sometimes when I think about kids that are ADHD or otherwise neurodivergent or maybe just struggling in academically or socially, you know if it's the situation where like, Okay, I think that my kid is maybe relying a little too heavily on video games, and they're missing some skills. I think when we go straight to how can we make them play less video games, we really put the cart before the horse because it seems like if we could find ways to support them in the real world scenarios, or like the outer the out of game scenarios where there is struggle that might, you know, and teach them like a mindful video game approach. I wonder how much of that would just kind of write itself like if I struggle academically? Because and I'm always putting off academics in order to go play video games? Well, at some level that makes sense. Like why would I want to engage in something I'm struggling when I could go engage in something I'm really competent at. And when you don't have a prefrontal cortex completely developed. It's kind of too much to ask a child to make that choice themselves without any structure, you know, and I'm just thinking like, there's probably ways that we can help our kids and they might need more help than we think like, I never did homework growing up and even though I went to like an after school program that had like, Okay, now this is your hour to do homework, like I still like even that wasn't enough structure. Like I truly needed someone to sit down next to me and be like, Let's get your journal out. What subjects do you have Okay, in what thing could we do first like, I think if I had someone that had done that, for me, I wouldn't have had so much trouble procrastinating schoolwork. And I probably could have gotten schoolwork done quicker. And then if I was a gamer, it probably would have just led to a better balanced life because I could have gotten work done. And as you know, amount of time, I probably wouldn't have felt that stressed out by it. And then I could have gone and engaged in gaming in a way that was fun and entertaining. And I didn't feel guilty because I wasn't avoiding something, but also wasn't the only place that I had to go like numb out because I was feeling a little more helped and supported with my homework. I don't know, what do you think about that? Yeah,
Derrick 20:38
I think that you know, if Did you for example, we were talking about maybe your child struggling in school, and they decided to go to video games to cope with so that they can feel competent. I think that yeah, it's that is a big reason why a lot of people play video games just for that feeling of competency, especially ADHD, or children that are struggling on children that were somewhere on the spectrum of neuro divergence. Video games, for me have been that place where I go to feel confident. And the one thing that and again, this, I don't upset anybody. But for me, the thing that I love the most about it is that there wasn't like the video games would tell me when I'm doing a good job. It just would even my worst attempts, it would say you can do it again, would you like to play again, would you like to try again like and the tutorials and video games they are step by step they take you through every unless it has a bad tutorial, it takes you through everything that you need to know to succeed. It says here are the tools. This is how you use them go out and play. And if you make a mistake, we'll help you. But we're not going to make it easy on you. We're not going to make I mean, you can change difficulty level but you will understand and learn the core language you need to speak in order to enjoy this game. And we're going to teach it to you. And you're either going to learn the language that we're teaching you or you're going to be frustrated the entire time, but we're going to keep teaching you. And so like every time you have an achievement or a milestone or get to the next level, there's flashing lights, there's a level of sign there's excitement, there's you get an achievement that you can go back and look at. And I just I didn't really receive a lot of that growing up, it was a lot of expectation, this is what we expected you to do. Or this is how you know like you don't get a gold star. And there are reasons for that. I'm not definitely some systemic reasons that go into that. But what I'm saying is, is an there was a lot of expectation, and I just when I played a video game, I knew that I would walk away. If it was if I weren't like playing it mindlessly, it just meant that the world, I knew I would walk away having achieved something. And all of my efforts seem to be even the failures were appreciated. You know, and I think sometimes in the world that we live in, it can be difficult to have that same level of like, it's just difficult to maintain that when you have a lot of other things going on. But yeah, I think that's a big reason why we go back,
KC 22:55
I wish that there were more mental health professionals that were gamers that could come up with a way of providing counseling, to and support to kids through gaming. Like I think about, like, I know, I made the metaphor or like the comparison last time about like how I'm really into fantasy books, and how similarly a lot of people like to look down on like, you know, booktalk fantasy books, especially if there's like, smart scenes or whatever. And there's kind of this eye roll that can go with Oh, middle aged women reading fantasy books, or whatever. Or like women reading romance books. And what I think is interesting, though, is that, like if you've ever been to a book club, when people are coming together, and they're talking about a book that they really like, there's some similarity overlap with like video gaming, where it's like, well, that's not real. Those people aren't real, right? But what if you have ever sat in the middle of a book club, and heard people talk about, well, why did this character do this? And well, I think they were good because of this. Well, I think they were bad because of this. No, you don't understand this was happening. It's like the conversations are about the most human topics. And the most, I mean, like topics about mental health. And, you know, one of the big series that's really viral right now is A Court of Thorns and Roses. And and it's not like it's not going to win a Pulitzer Prize. Right? It's fairies, and there are certainly are some smart scenes in there. And there's certainly some questionable writing and maybe some silly plot points, but at the same time, there are characters that go through like these massive mental health battles. And I have seen more than one more than a few, you know, young women like teenagers and young 20s Like making tic TOCs where they're like, you know, Ivan, this character makes me feel seen. And if this character can find redemption, maybe I can too. And I'm just thinking about book clubs and how we ended up talking about such human experiences, and we almost use those as a proxy to make an understanding of our world. And I, it makes me think, you know, I wish that there were people out there putting together groups or resources where people kids could do that same thing with video games, it's like, not only playing mindfully, but engaging in the chat mindfully, or having a space to talk about that video game in a way that you know, like a book club for a video game. You know what
Derrick 25:31
I'm trying not to laugh like, you have no clue it's just in Mass Effect, the you can get the whole fandom to get shout out to the Mass Effect fandom, you can get the whole fandom together, we can all meet at a convention or something like that. Or you can just you can pop a question and just ask them, What color did they choose at the end of Mass Effect three, and you will start such a not even just that did you overwhelm like I don't even want to get into I don't want to spoil if you put like, because everyone has such a different experience. But we regularly talk about the deep lore and stories and things and have divisive arguments over the last of us this might make it a little easier because they're so I'm so glad they're making video game shows now. But the last of us was a show that came out and everybody was into it. And like this discussion about the creative direction, the way that the second video game took from the first like just even that is a topic of discussion. So we regularly have discussions and we get to see people go through miraculous changes in like the empathy and the way that you can relate to some of the character stories, not all of them, but like all of us know what it feels like to be down. And I feel like we're fighting against something. But like, there's so many like characters that you can relate with and interact with that. Yeah, it is just like a book club. Like, and yeah, we have the same arguments we really do. And discussions and we laugh and cry, don't talk about what happened to anyway, long story short, yes, this is a perfect analogy for it,
KC 26:59
it just seems like it would take so little for one or two people that really new gaming in new mental health, right? To host conversations like that intentionally, for people to talk about certain topics that they were struggling with, right. Or to intentionally connect with a kid that you know, maybe is struggling with social skills or struggling with anger or struggling with empathy or struggling with their parents going through a divorce. You know, like, the reason that play therapy is so helpful for younger kids is, you know, we go in, we pick up a board game and you start playing this board game with this, you know, therapist, and all sudden, you're talking and you're using parts of the board game to talk about parts of your life. And it's almost a little strange to me that we haven't like taken that thought to its natural conclusion when it comes to like teenagers and video games.
Derrick 27:49
The play therapy with video games is definitely something that I have done in my practice before. And it really is, it's just amazing, you get to see it. Like I tell people all the time, the way that you do anything, is the way that you'll do everything. And the way that you play video games is the way that you play your life. And like I have just seen people go into situations where you know, before we started talking about it, where let's say you're playing a shooting game, like why are you just running around in the middle of the map everywhere? Why do you reload? After every single time you pull the trigger? Why are you using a sniper rifle on the stage? That's really small. Why are you using a pistol on the stage? That's really big. Why did you go right instead of left? Why didn't you wait like what all of these things come up? And you can, it's easily translated into the way that you do behaviors in real life. And it's such a one to one, like translation. And also it's like, it's not a guilt or shame thing. You just did it like there's no other. There's no other answer to it. You can talk about why you did it, which is how we get to the therapy part. Why did you run around that corner like that? Well, because I really wanted to get him let's talk about patience. And holding on a moment. It's really, really, it's really evident in fighting games. I was playing a person one time and he just kept jumping. He just kept on jumping. And I never did anything about it. I let him jump. And then in the last match, when I knew things were getting heated, we both had the same amount of health. And he jumped at me and I hit him and like he lost and he got so upset that when we played again he started doing more and more jumping. And at the end of it he was just mad. I was like man, do you realize that every time I knock you down and you have low health, the next thing you do is a joke. You do it every time. It's like I wonder do you jump to conclusions in your life a lot. A really great conversation anyway. Yeah, it's so wonderful.
KC 29:44
It's funny because it reminds me of when I used to do workshops at Drug Rehabs for families, like we'd have like family weekend and they come and part of the weekend was always done with equine therapy. And I didn't really appreciate like equine therapy, which is what Horses for those of you don't know, like how it worked. And like one of the things that we would do is we would take a family like out into this big round pin, and we'd have this horse there. And the thing that's really cool about horses is that because they are prey animals, they are very sensitive to other people's nervous systems, because that's how they survive. They have to be able to read people's heartbeats and anxiety levels and things like that. Because if you think about like, a predator who is stalking you who's like moving slow, will slow is usually calm and calm is usually safe, but not when it's a wolf stalking you. And so you have to be able to differentiate between an animal moving slow because they're calm and safe and animal moving slow because they are stalking you and trying to kill you. And so horses are very good at kind of reading congruence, like nervous system congruence and people and we would tell them, like, okay, family, like your job is to take this horse and like walk it down to the other side of the pen, and then like take it through these cones, but there'd be no bridle on the horse at all. So like no bridle, no saddle, no nothing. And the family would immediately like, try to get this horse to move. And every single time, the way that that family like the role that they played in their family, they would do with the horse, so there'd always be the mom, not always this is gonna be general, but like, you'd have mom that was like, come on, come on, sweet horse. Come on. Here's some grass, right? And then like, the horse would like bite at them. And you'd be like, Oh, no, come on, come on. And you'd be like, alright, mom. So like, let's talk about this. Like, do you typically like think being sweet and bribing is, like how you try to get people to motivate. And like when you get bid and your boundaries get pushed, you just double down with the sweetness, because that doesn't seem to work, right? And then you'd have dad, they'd be like, let's go, let's go move. Let's go. Let's go. And you're like, Hey, Dad, is that working? Like you being a bully, you push and everyone around, you turn, whatever, you'd have a sibling. This just like doesn't do anything. It's just like, I'm just going to sit back and watch you right? And like, they would just do their dynamics around this horse, and this horse would not move. And even more, the horse would leave them and be like, Y'all are gross. And but it's that same like, the way you do anything is the way you do everything. And again, it's like it's a horse. A horse is just a horse. A video game is just a video game. A book is just a book. But I think that when you allow something that is of natural interest to someone, you can engage in those kind of conversations about like, alright, dad, like we like the dad that always would get frustrated and quit. It would like always mirror exactly how he operated and his family. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And you'd always you know, then you have like the Peacekeeper who's trying to like, Okay, guys, guys, guys, we just need to figure out a plan. And as they would have to learn to change their roles in that like safe risk with the horse, it would like help them think about changing those roles. And to your point, like, it's the same thing with how somebody operates in a video game or around video games or in chats in video games. And I think I just think there's so much untapped potential there.
Derrick 33:02
I agree with you, I'm gonna get my pickaxe and start whacking at it. No, I think that there are people out here talking about it, though the tax community therapeutic applied gaming Summit is a place that I went one time. And it's definitely a connection, a collection of really geeky and nerdy therapists that are using Dungeons and Dragons using some are using video games. Some are using animated movies, television shows. And you know, whenever you said, you know, a book is just a book of game, it's just a game of movies, just a movie, what came to my mind, and therapy is just talking, right? Like, you could look at it like that. But when you really get into the core of what's going on the quite literal magic that has to happen sometimes with the way that we use words. And even in my own experience in therapy, the magic that my therapist has had to perform in the way that she asked questions, the situation, she puts me in the thoughts that you get, like, it's so much more when you allow yourself to see it is so much more. Same thing with dynamics in the family, you know, you can see it as one person. And when you allow yourself to expand it more, you can see how all of us are playing a role in some way in the problem that our family has. And yeah, it just takes opening up your mind to that which can be really hard. Sometimes if you don't have anyone to show you how to see it.
KC 34:14
I was thinking back to the similarity between like books and fantasy books. And one of the things that people will talk about a lot is, oh, you know, a lot of those fantasy books have such problematic, like, gender dynamics, right? Like, it's always a guy that's like, Oh, he's so protective, and like borderline abusive, and she's such a damsel in distress, and those are such problematic and, and there's this like simplistic conclusion of jumping to like you, no one should read these because they have problematic dynamics. And I think it's much more interesting to ask, I wonder what it is in us that feels so drawn to that. And do we have to shame ourselves for why we're drawn to it or can we get curious about it? And is there a way to look at these days dynamics and get curious about these dynamics. And also like, Fine, like, it doesn't mean that we're going to enact those dynamics in the real world. Like, can I mindfully engage in reading books about those dynamics where I kind of I understand what I'm why I'm drawn to them. And I'm not trying to make it be something that it's not. And it's not, you know, it's like serving me in real life. But maybe it's the safe container for me to explore this part of myself. And it strikes me that video games are the same way, if you're mindful about them.
Derrick 35:32
Yeah, but it's intense. It's way more intense, because in this situation, you're the person doing those things. And sometimes you have a choice. If you're playing like a choice based game, you can decide let's why I love Mass Effect so much, because there's a paragon renegade system, neither one is inherently better than the other. Okay, and now, I just got half the community mad at me. What I'm saying is like, it doesn't say anything about you as a person again, but it might depend on some of the choices
Unknown Speaker 35:58
that you make, like,
Derrick 36:02
really? And so like, Yeah, okay. It does say a lot about who you are, depending on what you choose, but like, there's some games where like, there's this I'm not going to spoil it. But the people that No, no, but anyway, there's this game called Spec Ops The Line where you're playing as a soldier, and there is a pivotal point in this game where something happens, and you can go look it up. Now, Spec Ops don't like people that play video games, they always tell people you have to play this game. So another game called Bioshock, where it's you're living in a let me not get it wrong. It's one of those utopias it's a utopia I need to replay it is what I'm saying. But it's one of those utopias where science will fix everything and every you know, and it's a brave new world. There it is. It's not great. But then again, there's a pivotal point in the narrative, where you realize something, and like, yeah, it's strange to realize how much you know, your freewill can be taken away. But yeah, in those situations, you can work through a lot of stuff. I know that there are a lot of gamers, me included, I have difficulty making the bad choice in video games, which has really what I perceived to be the bad choice, which has really resulted in some consequences and ultimately taught me that at some point, you have to choose a side. But yeah, I don't think we should be afraid to engage with those things or interact with them. It's real. What's what really happens, and there's no reason to like, you know, I mean, you want to make it age appropriate, but there's no reason to sanitize the things that we go through the experiences that real families have, and we ended up talking about them, but like, we never really named them, we'll name everything else. We'll name borderline personality disorder, we'll name ADHD, we'll name everything else, except for the difficult experiences that we go through living with each other. And the interesting thing is, it's not a name, it's a conversation. And yeah, I really think that those things are very important in the media and literature that we read and play
KC 37:51
music, we can spend so much time and effort trying to pull kids and young adults away from video games. Or we could spend a fraction of that effort pushing them farther into video games with mindfulness and deep conversations and true interest in curiosity, and probably get a far better result for our growth and our skill development and our maturity.
Speaker 1 38:15
I agree. I don't really have anything to add. Well, this has been such
KC 38:19
a great conversation in such a great follow up to our first conversation would drop some plug yourself to if people want to find you or follow you. Absolutely.
Derrick 38:27
So you can find me at the situational therapist.com. I also have a YouTube channel, Derek the mindful gamer. It is geared more towards gamers. So if you're not a super hardcore gamer, it might not be that great. I also have a podcast called the mindful gaming podcast. And sometimes I'll talk about video games. Sometimes I talk about being neurodivergent. I talk about quite a few things. So those are the places that you can find me. Derek, thank you so much. You're welcome. Thank you for having me.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai